Inside Medicine. What Are You Seeing? [COVID-19 medical news]

Interview with Paul Offitt, a vaccine expert, about covid vaccines (transcription): https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/936937#vp_1

He explains how vaccine trials work. In the Moderna and Pfizer trials, they’re recruiting 30,000 people. Half get the vaccine, half get the placebo. Both of these vaccines require two shots one month apart. Then they need to wait for about 150 or 160 people in the placebo group to get sick: not just infected, but moderately or seriously sick. Then they see how many people in the vaccine group get sick.

The only way the vaccine trials get stopped early is either if there’s a failure and the vaccine turns out to be dangerous, or if the vaccine turns out to be so wonderfully effective that even before 160 people get sick in the placebo group, it’s clearly working—like if 100 people get sick in the placebo group and no people get sick in the vaccine group.

Offitt doesn’t believe there will be a vaccine approval by the end of October. They haven’t even recruited all the participants yet, and the participants have to wait a month before they get the second shot, so the timing doesn’t work.

I was able to read the first two or three paragraphs of this, then it was behind a firewall. It didn’t sound promising, but I’m really glad there’s a country starting to look at it. Are they checking out mild and asymptomatic cases too?

@Creekland – I subscribe to WP


The first wave is over, thousands have been buried, and in a city that was once the world’s coronavirus epicenter, the hospital is calling back the survivors. It is drawing their blood, examining their hearts, scanning their lungs, asking them about their lives.

Twenty people per day, it is measuring what the coronavirus has left in its wake.

“How are you feeling?” a doctor recently asked the next patient to walk in, a 54-year-old who still can’t ascend a flight of steps without losing her breath.

“I feel like I’m 80 years old,” the woman said.

Six months ago, Bergamo was a startling warning sign of the virus’s fury, a city where sirens rang through the night and military trucks lined up outside the public hospital to ferry away the dead. Bergamo has dramatically curtailed the virus’s spread, but it is now offering another kind of warning, this one about the long aftermath, where recoveries are proving incomplete and sometimes excruciating.

A patient gets a CT scan in Bergamo, Italy. (Alberto Bernasconi for The Washington Post)
Those who survived the peak of the outbreak in March and April are now negative. The virus is officially gone from their systems.

“But we are asking: Are you feeling cured? Almost half the patients say no,” said Serena Venturelli, an infectious-disease specialist at the hospital.

The follow-ups with the once-hospitalized patients are the basis for medical research: Their health records now fill 17 bankers’ boxes, and scientific reports are on the way. Bergamo doctors say the disease clearly has full-body ramifications but leaves wildly differing marks from one patient to the next, and in some cases few marks at all. Among the first 750 patients screened, some 30 percent still have lung scarring and breathing trouble. The virus has left another 30 percent with problems linked to inflammation and clotting, such as heart abnormalities and artery blockages. A few are at risk of organ failure.

Beyond that, according to interviews with eight Pope John XXIII Hospital doctors involved in the work, many patients months later are dealing with a galaxy of daily conditions and have no clear answer on when it will all subside: leg pain, tingling in the extremities, hair loss, depression, severe fatigue.

Some patients had preexisting conditions, but doctors say survivors are not simply experiencing a version of old problems.

“We are talking about something new,” said Marco Rizzi, the head of the hospital’s infectious-disease unit.

Funeral home owner Giuseppe Vavassori, 65, developed short-term memory loss in the aftermath of the coronavirus. (Alberto Bernasconi for The Washington Post)
One patient, Giuseppe Vavassori, 65, has developed short-term memory loss and now lives under a mountain of Post-it notes and handwritten reminders, with names and phone numbers, so he can still run his funeral home business. A post-covid MRI showed dot-like lesions on his brain.

Another, Guido Padoa, 61, recovered well enough that he was able to go on vacation this summer. But he sleeps four extra hours per night and sometimes falls asleep suddenly midday, head on the computer keyboard.

Some patients who were self-reliant before contracting the virus remain so weakened that, when they arrive for their follow-up appointments, they’re helped to the waiting room by relatives, or in wheelchairs. Four people so far were too frail to make it through the several hours of testing and were rushed instead to the emergency room. Other times, people show up months later, having been through the worst — oxygen support, intubations — and are, improbably, almost fine. Doctors say one of the virus’s mysteries is how recoveries can be swift for some and brutal for others.

Venturelli mentioned a man in his 80s who’d come in for his follow-up visit, mostly recovered. His son, who’d also been infected, hadn’t fared as well. When Venturelli tried to refer the father to a specialist, he said he was too busy these days.

Covid had turned the father into his son’s caretaker.

Patients in a waiting room at the Pope John XXIII Hospital annex in Bergamo. (Alberto Bernasconi for The Washington Post)
THE BERGAMO RESEARCH is being led by the same doctors who worked frantic 14-hour days in March, sometimes falling sick themselves, while watching patients rapidly outnumber the beds. Now, wearing just masks, those same doctors and patients are sitting down together in a way that was impossible months ago.

“We did feel a moral obligation to call them back,” said Venturelli, who helped start the study in early May. “It was such a tsunami for us. What we saw in March was a tragedy, not a normal hospitalization.”

Bergamo, in March, was a place with six-hour waits for ambulances and 16-hour waits in the ER. At one point, the hospital had 92 people on ventilators — compared with 143 now in all of Italy — and so many who required breathing assistance that it needed to pipe in oxygen from a rush-delivered emergency tank. Subsequent antibody sampling, according to the government, indicated that one-quarter of Bergamo’s 1.1 million people were infected with the virus.

LEFT: Eugenio Poletti de Chaurand, a surgeon at Pope John XXIII Hospital, contracted the coronavirus in March and spent eight days using an oxygen helmet. He knew he needed the support — “I could feel myself suffocating,” he said — but he grew so agitated that he tried again and again to remove it. Doctors sedated him. He’s made almost a full recovery and returned to work in mid-May. RIGHT: Poletti de Chaurand said he has “only one lingering consequence” from his fight with the disease — a sensation, both strange and marvelous, that can suddenly overwhelm him, even during surgeries. In those moments, he becomes acutely aware of his lungs at work. “I draw deep breaths,” he said, “and feel great relief.” (Photos by Alberto Bernasconi for The Washington Post)

“I have a picture in my mind from that time of the ER with eight ambulances queuing outside,” said head nurse Monica Casati. Inside the hospital, she said, people were crying, moaning and gasping for air. “It was a noise that would remind you of Dante’s inferno,” she said.

The hospital was admitting only the worst cases, and to keep pace with the influx, it sometimes had to discharge patients before they were fully ready — something confirmed when the hospital started calling people for the follow-ups. In addition to the 440 people who died while hospitalized, 220 died after being told to go home.

A patient gets his respiration rate checked. Among the first 750 patients screened, about 30 percent exhibited breathing trouble and permanent lung scarring. (Alberto Bernasconi for The Washington Post)

The study in Bergamo is one of multiple efforts around the world to examine aspects of covid’s lingering damage. One German study of 100 people found that nearly 80 percent had heart abnormalities several months after infection. Other studies are underway to look specifically at “long-haulers” — a subset of people, some never hospitalized, who nonetheless have fatigue and other symptoms months after the illness.

Second part of WP article:


Some of the doctors in Bergamo see reasons for encouragement in their findings, especially given the severity of what patients faced in March and April and the trial-and-error treatments they were given. They say that patients’ breathing seems to gradually improve, even though the lung scarring is permanent. Doctors have found nobody with a fever.

“Many of them coming in for repeat visits, they are doing better now than they were in May,” said Caterina Conti, a lung specialist.

For the patients who have been able to regain a semblance of their lives, the last barrier is the trauma itself — the raw memory of being in a hospital where so many were dying, and wondering if they might be next. Padoa, a photographer, said he remembers hearing others in his ward struggling to breathe, and seeing hospital workers remove the bodies, change the bedsheets. With his own lungs on the brink of failure, he worried what might happen if he let his eyes close, so he drew on his training four decades earlier as a paratrooper. Under an oxygen helmet, as it beeped and hissed, he willed himself to stay awake for five days, he said.

“It’s like when you are on a high mountain in the cold,” Padoa said. “If you fall asleep, you die.”

LEFT: Mirco Carrara, 55, experienced a severe bout of covid-19 and now lives with the risk of fungus-filled bubbles exploding in his lungs. RIGHT: Carrara’s daily medication regimen. (Photos by Alberto Bernasconi for The Washington Post)
BUT THE GRAVEST patients of all, like Mirco Carrara, 55, have no recovery in sight.
By the time he arrived for his follow-up, it was late August, and he’d moved back into his home on the outskirts of Bergamo. He’d started going to work again, as a manager at a military parts company. But he was also coming to terms with how drastically his life had changed.

He had spent more than a month in a medically induced coma. In the middle of that, he was transferred on a German medevac plane to a hospital in Cologne. Doctors there saw that his lungs had developed not only scars but also a fungal infection. He was removed from the ventilator, re-intubated after his lung collapsed, then removed again. By the time he returned, conscious, to a rehabilitation center in Italy, Carrara had lost 45 pounds. He needed to relearn to swallow and stand.

And even that he had felt capable of doing, until doctors told him one more thing. The full trauma of covid — the ventilation, the treatment, the compounding infections — meant there were now fungus-filled bubbles inside his lungs, each a bomb-like threat that could critically impair his breathing if it burst.

“I started crying,” Carrara said. “Up until that point, I had thought I’d be able to recover.”

In an interview, Simone Benatti, the doctor at Pope John XXIII who consulted with Carrara, described the air and fungus bubbles as a “bad complication” and mentioned a separate Italian study showing that some deceased covid victims were found to have bacterial or fungal abscesses in their lungs.

“There is an interplay between covid and other infections,” Benatti said.

@AlmostThere2018 Thank you for those. I feel for those affected. Covid is evil. Those who get it and recover completely (at least as far as they know) are fortunate. I can’t help but wonder if even they will have problems 10-20 years down the road. Are they totally damage free? Or are they just ok enough now to not feel effects?

If they are, indeed, totally fine one has to wonder what the difference is. Something genetic? Luck? Previous illnesses giving them some immunity?

I’m glad more studies are out there.

I also still wonder if those who don’t give a hoot about it realize how much “damage” is out there among survivors and going back to the German study, even asymptomatic people.

The myocarditis percentages in Big 10 college football were incorrectly stated by Dr. Sebastianelli (who did not do this research to start with).

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/03/health/penn-state-big-10-myocarditis-covid-spt-trnd/index.html

The study Sebastianelli was referring to, and incorrectly quoted, was done by Curt Daniels. Myocarditis rate in that study was around 15%, but with caveats (it’s not published yet). Obviously, 15% is still concerning.

Yet, no NFL players that have been diagnosed with covid (getting close to 200) have had myocarditis. Football team physicians (all NFL, some NCAA) test for myocarditis routinely (pre-covid).

See here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/23/sports/ncaafootball/college-football-myocarditis-coronavirus.html

It is unfortunate that Dr. Sebastianelli’s misstatement was so widely reported by the media without fact checking (the facts were known at the time, as the above NYT article pre-dates Dr. Sebastianelli’s misstatment, all be it on a still-to-be published study).

Thanks for sharing that. I had seen both numbers and like others (incorrectly) assumed it was 15% of Big Ten and 30-35% of Penn State Covid players.

Interesting that NFL players aren’t showing the same thing. It makes me wonder if age matters, but if so, that doesn’t match the German study.

Looking forward to seeing more data from various groups and places, the sooner the better.

Thought an update on covid at-risk conditions might be helpful. There have been some updates to this info on CDC’s website, which includes links to current evidence for these pronouncements.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html

Another study confirming the virus sometimes invades brain cells:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/09/health/coronavirus-brain.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200910&instance_id=22057&nl=the-morning&regi_id=133624797&section_index=2&section_name=three_more_big_stories&segment_id=37752&te=1&user_id=087d056d0d4145cc2ca6626698618875

The above is a longer article, but in it toward the end it mentions a mouse study. The mice with it in the brain died. The mice infected via the lungs did not.

Wonder if that applies to people. It says they will be doing more studies looking at cadavers.

There has to be some reason Person A dies and Person B does not even though they look equivalent on the outside.

We do know that a relatively high proportion of those infected with SARS-CoV-2 who have severe cases, or even die, have one or more of the at-risk factors I linked to above.

I agree with this, but I know my lad tells me that doctors have what they consider to be two identical patients (pre-Covid) in front of them (same conditions or lack thereof). Some die, some don’t. Some are more affected than others too. They don’t know why.

Vaping is also a major risk for having a worse infection from what I heard. Since it’s mostly younger folks who vape, perhaps that doesn’t make the CDC list because they don’t die as often.

My lad just encountered a positive case a couple of days ago - his only symptom was sweating at the drop of a hat. Everything else was normal - bloodwork, vital signs, etc. It was all very puzzling to them until the Covid results. Now it’s still puzzling, but because they hadn’t seen that as a symptom before.

It’s a very strange virus.

The sedation used while patients are on a ventilator, which are strong enough to induce coma, may result in apparent neurological symptoms, psychosis/confabulation, and amnesia lasting months. Many need to relearn how to walk and have other effects. I don’t see how the effects of sedation and coma can be differentiated from effects of COVID, clotting or inflammation as yet for those who were ill in the last few months.

If 40-60% of hospitalized covid patients have neurological symptoms, that cannot be explained by the effects of ventilators. Only something like 20% or less of hospitalized patients are vented.

Report indicates that dining in restaurants was associated with COVID-19:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6936a5.htm

CNN has an article today about the long haul group. I will quote a couple of things that caught my eye.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/13/health/long-haul-covid-fatigue-breathing-wellness/index.html

“…The primary trend across the Covid-19 long haulers that Greenspan is working with is a condition called dysautonomia, a condition marked by a miscommunication between the autonomic nervous system and the rest of the body.
The autonomic nervous system regulates automatic body functions such as breathing, sleep and digestion. When it’s not working, symptoms can present in myriad different ways, depending on the person…”

"…Corey Coopersmith, a 36-year-old fitness consultant in Las Vegas, hasn’t been able to work since first getting sick in late February. He suffers a constant ebb and flow of symptoms, and yet visit after visit to medical specialists has turned out a series of “normal” lab tests.
“A month ago, I had a pulmonary exam, and I got 120% on the gas exchange test,” Coopersmith said, noting the doctor told him, “Your lung function is amazing.”
But a breakthrough came when he finally visited an immunologist who performed tests that indicated abnormally low function of immune cells, including T cells and B cells.
“Have you been tested for HIV?” the immunologist asked Coopersmith, he recalled. “Your blood work looks like someone about to get AIDS…”

@CardinalFang I was referring specifically to patients who were vented. There would be no difficulty in differentiating between symptoms from COVID and ventilator if they weren’t vented :slight_smile:

One of my kids was on a ventilator and induced coma for weeks after a brain injury, and noone told me the after effects were from the ventilator. I assumed the effects were from the brain injury, which caused all of us undue stress and grief. I wish I had known.

I think there may be some patients and families who are similarly not informed by medical folks that the neuro effects of ventilation are not permanent or even long term in some cases. They may assume that all symptoms are from COVID. I don’t think anyone yet can differentiate cause, which was my point.

Again, yes, this would only apply to those who were on ventilators. I was NOT saying that COVID has no neuro effects.

We don’t know what fraction of the people who get covid will be long haulers. All we have is a few inadequate studies, plus numerous anecdotes. But I’ll venture to guess that the number of unvented long haulers vastly outnumbers the vented long haulers. I’ll further claim that even among those with neurological after-effects, the number of unvented long haulers outnumbers the vented long haulers.

In other words, after-effects of ventilation do not explain the brain fog for most long haulers, because they weren’t vented.

Exactly. And the after effects of ventilation don’t last that long. It is just good for those who ARE suffering neuro effects of ventilation to have hope in case that is the cause. We suffered a lot from not knowing about that.

If the neuro ICU at one of the top hospitals in the world didn’t tell us, it is possible people aren’t being informed that, for instance, apparent psychosis, inability to walk, and cognitive challenges may resolve if due to venting.

I am not addressing non-vented long haulers’ issues here at all. Let’s hope they get the respect and help that has eluded “chronic fatigue” sufferers for so long.

I’m hearing about cross-pollination between people studying chronic fatigue, aka myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME), and people studying covid sequelae, perhaps because chronic fatigue patients and long haul patients are comparing notes. Seems like autonomic dysregulation after a virus could be a commonality.