<p>I agree with BMD, I doubt the AMA wants the change…What kind of lobbyist group would want to see a drop in their members salaries(no matter how small this drop may be)…that would mean less money for their members, and then their members would give less to the group…less money for the AMA makes them less powerful…</p>
<p>“BMD” - Brother of Mass Destruction?</p>
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<p>To be honest, I know little to nothing about this whole topic, which is why I haven’t commented on this yet (except to voice my annoyance with CCer). But, I do work in a lab with a lot of Europeans, who are totally shocked at how much we pay for health care. They can’t believe we have to pay for health insurance, and then still pay for health care. They can’t believe how much we pay for hospital visits or basic medications. Last year I traveled to a country with a high risk of malaria. My insurance would not cover the malaria medication, and it would have cost me $550, so I instead chose the cheap ****ty brand which gave me severe sun sensitivity and heart burn. My foreign co-workers all responded to this mostly with confusion. I have a friend on birth control because her body produces excess testosterone, but insurance doesn’t cover it, and even the generic stuff costs her $25 a month, for birth control. I had a high school classmate who lost her leg, which literally drove her family into bankruptcy. Why do we pay so much to be healthy? Do other people in other systems pay this kind of money for health care?</p>
<p>I’m not saying universal health care is the answer, I don’t know, and it’s definitely something I need to read up on more (I’m just tired of all the politicized BS floating around at the moment), but it seems to me that people often are happy with some of the systems that exist in other countries. Sure, it might mean longer lines, and it might mean lower physician salaries. But what would I want as a patient? I’d want access to affordable health care… I’d want to know that if something happened to me–if I get cancer, or if I get seriously injured, etc, that I won’t go bankrupt paying hospital bills, and I never want to be in the position where I need to go to the hospital but can’t, because I’m worried about the cost.</p>
<p>Conversely, they’re also shocked at how low our income taxes are. Everything gets paid for somehow.</p>
<p>Sure, I just wonder how big the disparity is… how well do the higher taxes equal out with lower health care costs? Obviously you get the short end of the stick if you’re lucky enough to never need serious medical care, and there go all those tax dollars to Joe Shmoe who broke his arm riding around on his fancy motorcycle. But how many of us are so lucky as to never get sick, and to never need to go to a hospital?</p>
<p>Eh, I’m thinking aloud at this point…</p>
<p>"Conversely, they’re also shocked at how low our income taxes are. Everything gets paid for somehow. "</p>
<p>Some of them are even shocked at how much we pay in total between income taxes, social security, medicare taxes, state income taxes, state sales taxes and property taxes.</p>
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<p>Not very well. In an absolute sense, health care in the US is a lot more expensive. But that’s very different from the complaint about having to pay for it ourselves.</p>
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Well, obviously not very many, but that’s not the right question. The right question is, how many of us are so lucky as to put more into the system than we get out? And now we get into a big mess because Medicare (like Social Security) is a classic example of a Ponzi scheme. We’re just hoping it stays afloat for a little while longer.</p>
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Probably not Western Europeans, and certainly not French/British/German/Scandinavians. Taxes are higher than they seem – probably about 60% in the highest brackets – but (if memory serves) that’s still quite a bit lower than the countries in question.</p>
<p>NO no no, Blue devil mike,</p>
<p>If you had actually taken a look at the graph, it said : " ADJUSTED FOR PURCHASING POWER." SO… US doctors unconditionally have the edge in salary over universals.</p>
<p>On this one, I’ll take responsibility for this error. This, however, actually makes IP’s point (post #71) all the more responsive to your argument.</p>
<p>I may be wrong but isnt post #71 someone who agree with me?</p>
<p>I think your referring to 74.
I fail to see how it makes it more responsive.</p>
<p>On Universal Health Care, some people view it as socialization of Health Care. When asked whether the plan was socialist, George W. Bush replied with a “we will see,” interesting choice of words. See recent issue of Time Magazine.</p>
<p>Regardless of your current opinion of Bush, he once ENJOYED 90%+ approval rate (meaning 9 out of 10 of you guys) and WAS one of the most powerful/influencial man due to his title as President of the United State.</p>
<p>Again, sloppy on my part. Yes, I meant #74, although I’m amused that you didn’t notice that post #71 was being sarcastic.</p>
<p>It makes #74 more powerful, since the argument went like this:</p>
<p>CC: US docs make more than others.
IP: And yet other countries still have plenty of folks in medicine.
BDM: Actually, the gap is not as large as it seems, so it is less surprising that people still go into medicine.</p>
<p>Since BDM was wrong on this one, then the gap IS as large as it seems, and IP’s criticism is now unmitigated.</p>
<p>Again, medical school tuition probably isnt 50,000 USD in Britain or Germany. The 300,000-400,000 dollars of debt is a nice incentive to earn money. Without it, the Job simply because like any other. So people like working as physicians in Germany, only to have German physicians move to GB for greater salaries. Why do so many International physicians come to US to take the BORDER? For money. Thats why my family came to the US.</p>
<p>I am more concerned about the drop in pay (so are the 160000, 20%, or the US physicians who are ready to quit medicine if pay drops).</p>
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<p>This statement claims that the mere fact that other countries have a universal health care system is why they have lower pay for physicians. Yet, among countries with universal health care there is huge variation in pay, as you own sources point out. This indicates that physician pay seems to result from factors other than the fact that they choose to cover everyone. The article you cited about Germany points out that their doctors are not paid well largely because of greedy chief physicians who misuse the system so they can bring in millions for themselves. This is only one of numerous reasons for dependencies in pay between countries. An important question to ask is why doctors in the US make so much compared to other countries while having worse outcomes, higher costs, less physicians, and fewer people insured. The fee-for-service framework is why many doctors make so much in the US. This system rewards doctors for ordering expensive tests when a cheaper test could have sufficed, or ordering tests when there is no need to test at all. Not only does this not make people healthier, but it actually makes them face potential complications of testing they didn’t need, costs them more time and money, and gives them nothing in return. Here is an excellent article (albeit lengthy one) discussing the issue: [Annals</a> of Medicine: The Cost Conundrum: Reporting & Essays: The New Yorker](<a href=“http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande]Annals”>The Cost Conundrum | The New Yorker) Here is another: [Health</a> Care Reform: The Difference Between Rationing and Rational - ABC News](<a href=“Health Care Reform: The Difference Between Rationing and Rational - ABC News”>Health Care Reform: The Difference Between Rationing and Rational - ABC News)</p>
<p>You propose we not cover people, continue to see costs rise out of control, and not address the underlying problems that result in the US spending more for worse care. It is ironic how so many people who claim that universal care will mean worse care fail to notice that the health care systems in places like Britain and Canada have better outcomes on many measures of public health. Better outcomes, more coverage, and lower costs despite all the complaints. Oh, and they have more physicians per capita when compared to the US system…</p>
<p>There are also other reforms in the works that would encourage doctors to stay in business that you poll(which I’ve already explained is flawed) fails to even consider. Such as malpractice reform(Obama has proposed that doctors who follow accepted standards of treatment would be protected from suits), decrease in paperwork that many doctors complain about, increase in primary care physicians as a result of increased incentives that would allow more time with patients and less rushing simply to make more money, no haggling over who pays for those without insurance, etc…</p>
<p>Your sole argument for not changing is that some doctors may see their salaries decrease. You don’t provide any alternative solutions to the problems with the current system, you don’t recognize that some doctors may see their pay increase, you don’t recognize the importance to the nations health of ending the problems of the fee-for-service system that can actually cause harm, you don’t recognize that most people and most doctors favor this change, and I could go on and on… You only care about money. You truly are pathetic. It is true that given the high costs of medical school in the US that doctors must be adequately compensated, but to assume that we can ignore primary care physicians decreasing pay and allow specialists to rake in much more than is necessary to pay off their debt and live extremely comfortably is to subjugate health care to a minority of people and doctors who only care about money. It is to hand health care over to people like you. I can assure you, not many people want someone like you making decisions about health care. In fact, their overwhelming support for the public option (which is NOT the same as what these other countries have as you seem to consistently ignore) is proof of my point.</p>
<p>Let the current situation be.
Fine, so GB has fewer dead infants per 100000 people, along with other “indicators” of healthcare quality. Those statistics do not measure the quality of healthcare. Do you know why?</p>
<p>As you pointed out, MANY (40mil+) do not have healthcare. Therefore it is a unfair comparison to include those 40million people in the equation. Because Great Britain has Universa Health Care, Almost all of their citizens are covered. </p>
<p>If we only count the people who DO have healthcare in US, I am confident that the Infant mortality rate and all those “indicators” I am confident that if we only count the Americans who DO have health care, the quality of the American system will shine through.</p>
<p>oh please, inpursuit. this “helping people” crap is way overrated. a smart doctor would set his own hours, only take cash, and not deal with any of this insurance nonsense. medicine is a business – if you have more money you should get a better doctor. regardless, i don’t see this country heading in the direction of universal health care. thank god.</p>
<p>^^^ Amen. Finally someone who thinks straight.</p>
<p>i’ve always thought that the reasons people state for wanting to become a doctor were nonsense. do you like science? become a scientist…doctors don’t give a crap about science. you like to help people? please, even janitors help people.</p>
<p>people, at least in america, become doctors for the money. if a guy is trying to become a doctor for the prestige, money, and the hope of having a hot wife someday, don’t blame him.</p>
<p>big ups to CC’er.</p>
<p>Wow… I didn’t know reading the minds and motives of other people who a characteristic of humans, but I guess you just know everything and therefore know why everyone goes into medicine… Social workers, nuns, a former teacher of mine who left a successful law practice to teach middle school gifted students, doctors who enter lower paying specialties/jobs because that is what they enjoy not because it pays, etc… all show that people certainly choose their paths in life for reasons other than money. </p>
<p>Just because you two are delusional enough to think people enter into medicine for money doesn’t make it so. In fact, people entering into medicine for money are pretty damn stupid. There are much easier ways to attain wealth.</p>
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<p>Case in point…</p>
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<p>quoted for truth</p>