Interesting Admission Statistics from One Top Private School

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
121

First Weaver and now Posner? Looking forward to the Leo Strauss quote. Seriously though, the Posner quote seems inapt. We are talking about history class, right? Narrative has always played a primary role in history class, has it not? The “canon" of Posner’s "western tradition” consists mostly of narrative, and much of it is fiction! This discussion is not about whether stories get told - they do - it is about which stories get told.

And no disrespect meant, but I don’t think you are accurately conveying what these schools are trying to accomplish. For example, you insist that “CRT doesn’t brook discussion,” but in these schools, discussion is strongly encouraged. For example, HW actively encourages “courageous conversations” where students are asked to stay engaged . . . stay true to themselves . . . keep an open mind . . . go outside their comfort zone . . be respectful . . . assume good intentions . . . realize and accept that there may not be resolution. Does that sound like the schools are trying to pound a single nail into every kids mind? It doesn’t to me.

122

Posner would be the law school not history class. CRT really began at NYU Law with Derrick Bell and its been floating through the law schools ever since. However, Posner has also made more general social and humanist commentary. Marlowe’s point has more to do with methodology. The Western Canon would not reject more contemporary narratives or even non-Western narratives. However, Western thought relies on critical analysis and points of argument to examine those narratives. CRT, on the other hand, favors the narratives themselves and rejects Enlightenment-inspired (ie White European) methods of analysis, inquiry and argument. If UChicago is recruiting kids from HW, it’s probably because they foster the skill sets you speak of including going outside of the comfort zone, respectful discussion, engagement with the curriculum etc. All good skills to bring to a place like UChicago! However, if they are conducting their educational mission under the guise of “systemic racism” that’s another thing, and those kids would be in for a rude awakening when they bring those ideas to UChicago and uncritically cite them in Hum or Sosc. They wouldn’t be alone, however, as most first years find that they are required to back up their statements or consider and critique other points of view using analytical techniques. It’s what makes the UChicago Core special.

123

You’re impressing me with your knowledge of ancient Chicago profs, @mtmind . Much can be forgiven such a person. With enough time perhaps I can bring Allan Bloom or Saul Bellow into our colloquy.

I hope it is true that multiple perspectives are permitted in CRT-themed classes. You haven’t provided any evidence of this beyond quoting a generic and frankly insipid blurb from HW about how it encourages discussion. Was this before or after introduction of CRT into the curriculum, I wonder? One would have to be closer to the action than either you or I are to know how this actually goes down. The accounts I have read of such classes in other schools do not suggest anything like free discussion or a non-dogmatic take on the subject matter. That is what the dissident parents were saying about HW. Since their account is the only one we actually have we are brought back to the question of whether they are lying or grossly exaggerating. What reason is there for thinking they could be doing these things? You may not like them because of their privileged whining, but It is not really sufficient to dismiss their accounts for that reason. Alas, the narrative of white privilege makes it hard to break through to the facts. However, we should do our best.

There’s plenty of room in my book for everyone’s stories. I don’t care much where the stories come from or the color of skin of the teller thereof. It’s a big wide wonderful world out there. But a story is only a story. History is another thing. The tall tales of Herodotus are amusing, but historians have moved beyond them in their search for the truth of ancient things. W.H. McNeill is held to a higher standard than the guy we call the Father of History.

124

@marlowe1 Herodotus was doing the best he could and provided lots of valuable data about his period. He could not help it that Thucydides came along a few years later and made him look amateurish. BTW I am a great fan of William McNeil but he has been known the speculate in his writings on occasion.

2 Likes
125

You all sound like my D’s second quarter hum seminar. Her final paper was on the historiographical methods of Herodotus, Livy, and Tacitus. She loves the actual study of the writing of history and explored the subject with different application (this time to the writing of American history) in her BA thesis.

Both kids read McNeill in Western Civ. He only died about five years ago - lived to be 98!

126

I was a history major and classics minor as an undergraduate so I guess I have that excuse. Became acquainted with McNeil when my cousin was a history PhD student at UChicago. (He got bounced out of the program in relatively short order)

127

Wow - I know people in the history department who are nth year grad students and one can only hope and pray that they will finish their thesis. McNeill must have been hard core. Of course, “history” at UChicago is considered a social science. They left the humanities division with great ceremony back in the 30’s over, of course, methodological issues. Huge controversy at the time.

McNeill was Dean Boyer’s instructor. Dean Boyer is not young.

1 Like
128

I see this as the core question raised by the article. Some parents seem to be saying the policy isn’t being upheld. You say it is. That is the sum total of what I know about how CRT discussions are going down at HW.

When we were shopping for school districts back in the day, the cost differential between the “good” school district and the neighboring “bad” school districts over time was the cost of putting two kids through private school. Apparently we weren’t the only ones doing the math.

129

Take a look at @wokeathw and @wokeatbws instagram accounts. These schools (and the very expensive independent school my own child attends in LA) do absolutely “hold forth constantly about social justice.” And it’s not just private schools. My highly rated local public school district (in Los Angeles County) is also diving head first into this ideology and MANY parents and educators are organizing to push back.

130

HW has pivoted to become an “Anti-Racist” institution. See this 20-page PDF which explains it all: https://www.hw.com/pdf/Anti-RacismatHarvard-Westlake.pdf

There clearly will be mandatory “anti-bias” training of all students as well as a middle school summer read and discussion of the book Stamped: Racism,Antiracism, and You by Jason Reynolds and Dr. Ibram X. Kendi. And there’s a lot more there as well concerning the redesign of a few curricula, not just the 11th grade American History. However, the American History one in particular will have as its framework those who were “absent from power” with a heavy emphasis on the African American experience since Reconstruction. I suppose the goal there is to understand that there are many “voices, motives and actions” in our country’s history, not just those concerning the LA Purchase or the MO Compromise or the like.

So, as a parent, I’d be concerned not only with the “hammer vs nail” characterization of CRT (as pointed out by @marlowe1) and potential limitations in intellectual advancement using that framework, but also a “single nail” reframing of the school experience in terms of “racism.” The article links to many concrete examples that apparently are of concern to parents (@BeagleBrigade has pointed some of these out). However, in all fairness we don’t know how much of the school experience is taken up with this stuff.

The “Courageous Conversations” mentioned earlier are adapted from the work of racial equity expert Glenn Singleton https://ccglobalfoundation.org/about/glenn-singleton/ and offered within the context of diversity, equity and inclusion efforts at HW. They include good points, to be sure, but the freedom to speak your mind or even offer a different point of view isn’t really a “diversity, equity and inclusion” issue. In fact, framing it as such might even stifle, rather than encourage, the exchange of ideas, lest some of them be construed by someone as non-inclusive. Key here is that Glenn Singleton’s “Courageous Conversations” are about race - racial healing, racial equity, and so forth. They are not about thermodynamics, literary giants of the 20th century, or the US electoral college. Kids aren’t being encouraged to discuss issues of mind, but of skin. That doesn’t mean there can’t be some fruitful conversations, but one wonders how much school time will be taken up with them.

131

Below is “A Measuring Rod,” written by Mildred Lewis Rutherford in 1920, and used in the South for decades to test the objectivity of US History textbooks:

Committees appointed by Boards of Education or heads of private institutions and their teachers can apply this test when books are presented for adoption, so that none who really desire the truth need be hampered in their recommendation for acceptance or rejection of such books. Absolute fairness to the North and South is stressed as only Truth is History.

Is it story? Or truth/history? If the former, can you give me any example of a US History textbook which eschews story and only includes truth/history?

As for the rest, I don’t dismiss the “dissident” parents based on what you term their "privileged whining.” I am just as close to the action as they are, and IMO, they are mistaken. They haven’t been silenced. This plan has been in the works for years. They have had many opportunities to be heard by the school. They also tried to rally other parents and alums to their cause. When all of their efforts failed to gain much traction, they mistakenly concluded that some were shunning them, while the others were too scared to speak up.

So they’ve taken the issue to the press and started social media accounts, doxing those with whom they disagree and posting mistaken, misleading and out of context information including communications between teachers and their students. When students tried to set the record straight, they closed the comments and deleted their posts.

When middle school journalists created a poll to gauge the on-campus reaction to this social media campaign, they publicly attacked the middle schoolers’ poll, and outrageously suggested that these kids weren’t capable its creation, claiming it was really HW acting “under the guise of the HW middle school student paper. . . . It’s a well done survey (we are highly skeptical that middle school students wrote it.)

They also dismissed the poll out of hand, demonstrating utter distain for the viewpoints of students (and faculty, who were also polled.) "The destructive, illiberal politics HW has embraced are the problem, regardless of what middle school kids think of this page.”*

So much for fighting to give their kids a voice in their education.

And of course much of this was done anonymously, because they claim they felt threatened by a culture of fear. Ironically, they created a “culture of fear” amongst students and faculty. As one student noted, if students honestly offer opinions which the “dissidents” don’t like, they might find themselves ridiculed in a Ben Shapiro tweet or on Breibart.

Rather than a input, these families seem to be demanding a veto over curriculum, teachers, speakers, and policies with which they disagree. And the don’t seem to give a lick about those in the community who see it differently, including the kids.
_
_
*In addition to being incredibly insulting to these kids, this allegation leaves me wondering whether the people behind the social media site have any clue what happens at the school. It is hard to imagine that a HW parent or alum would so grossly underestimate the capabilities of HW students.

132

By your screen name, I’m guessing you have some experience with CA private schools, so you might be familiar with HW’s academic reputation (as opposed to just the rich-posh-celebrity reputation.) The idea that these kids aren’t allowed to think critically or to communicate effectively is a non-starter. They are required to, but they must do it thoughtfully and respectfully, and listen to, learn from, and interact with their peers. And they do. (It is not unusual for students to go off to great colleges and feel somewhat let down by the academic and intellectual experience. Maybe this helps explain why HW kids are so popular with Chicago.)

As for what is really happening here, while HW may be considered conservative-to-stodgy by LA standards, it is liberal-progressive by broader standards, and in 2014 HW officially made it the “Mission” of the school to "strive[] to be a diverse and inclusive community united by the joyful pursuit of educational excellence, living and learning with integrity and purpose beyond ourselves.” Since then, in its communications with prospective and enrolled families, it has emphasized that this is not a hollow proclamation. HW really has been on a mission to make the school not just diverse but also inclusive, so that any student from anywhere in a city as varied as Los Angeles would feel as comfortable with who they are as any other student. They weren’t going for diversity and assimilation, but rather diversity and inclusion

That is the mission that these “dissident” families chose to accept.

  • They sent their kids to a school striving for toward diversity and inclusiveness, yet now they are upset that many of the assemblies are focused on diversity and inclusion, and that most of the speakers are liberal or progressive.
  • They sent their kids to a place striving to teach the kids to pursue purposes beyond themselves, yet they are angry because occasionally their kids are exposed to a critical view of capitalism.

Come on. It’d be like joining the army then being outraged that you have to wear a uniform, follow orders, and maybe go to war.

It is right there, out in the open. The school is pushing toward more diversity and inclusion. But HW also teaching math and science and English, history, etc. all at an extraordinarily high level, and teaching kids to think critically and communicate effectively. I think HW views these pursuits as complementary, not contradictory.

133

I am familiar with HW’s academic reputation, and believe it to be a great school delivering a great education. But I don’t know anyone who goes there.

I know that elite private high schools across the country have experienced a reckoning around their diversity and inclusion efforts (or lack thereof) in the past year, forcing them to reflect on whether they are living up to their stated policies. My personal experience is limited to one California school, which probably is not dissimilar to HW. My view on it is that Cate is lurching forward - some teachers, admins, parents and students of all political persuasions are more diverse and inclusive than others. We are all works in progress.

Tensions are tight everywhere right now, not just in schools. I think the tone of this thread in and of itself reflects how hard these conversations are. People are new to them. I know I am. It is understandable that people misfire, are misunderstood and even mistreated by people with good intentions. Mix that in with assumptions concerning privilege and power (who was it and who doesn’t), and on top of it normal parental worries for their kids’ futures in a world that is looking more uncertain every day - people are freaked out. I get where the “dissidents” are coming from, regardless of whether I agree with them. And that kind of labeling just goes to show how easy it is to derail an otherwise productive conversation.

Anyway, University of Chicago likes Cate students too - and it is mutual. One of the most appealing features is its emphasis on freedom of speech. Probably not a coincidence.

Cate can’t put out the granular details about admissions without destroying anonymity because it is so small. But generally speaking it is interesting to see how much legacy/athletics potentially makes a difference - assuming the same phenomenon is happening at Cate as is happening at HW. As the mother of an unhooked kid, knowing what schools are more dependent on legacies is important to know when figuring out what schools to target. For the elite high schools, there are enough high performing students applying to T20s, legacy etc clearly makes a difference on likelihood of unhooked admission to some universities more than others. I would be a fool to ignore that - and just as schools can favor legacies and athletes, I can favor those that don’t. What my kid favors, well I don’t have much influence over that. Thank goodness he values free speech. :wink:

2 Likes
135

This emphasis on freedom of speech at UChicago is real, and it affects the discussion that happens on campus, in a good way.

I have a child finishing up at UChicago and another currently at Harvard. Because of the pandemic, both were home during part of the school year, and I got to hear them compare notes about their experience.

What surprised me about Harvard is a much higher level of what I term “dysfunctional advocacy” among its students compared to UChicago. Some Harvard students say outrageous things on chat groups, and if someone comes back with a rational response, the rational student gets harassed. After a while everyone learns to ignore the dysfunctional people for their own good, and the dysfunctional people continue their ways.

This seems to happen far less at UChicago. Perhaps it is because the dysfunctional advocates avoid UChicago in the first place, or perhaps it is because students at UChicago are not afraid to respond knowing that their administration has their back.

2 Likes
137

@skieurope,

Can you weigh in here? We are having a number of posts flagged that to me do not seem offensive in any way, including mine and Marlowe’s.

2 Likes
138

Not really interested in contributing to OT posts, since such discussions are better suited for PMs, but they were flagged for ToS violations.

139

The writing of history will always include perspective and bias - intentional or otherwise. Contemporary and subsequent historical scholars will usually correct the record or contribute to the debate with their own perspectives. However, in the case of the CR interpretation contemporary scholars have already spoken out to point out not a little bit of fiction and inaccuracy. With such feedback, schools shouldn’t be plowing ahead with a re-write; to do so smacks of ideology rather than genuine interest in advancing a complete and accurate picture of such historical topics as slavery. Unfortunately, Hannah Nikole-Jones is not an academic historian; she is a journalist and she writes uncritically (from an analytical point of view). I suspect she would be laughed out of UChicago’s Sosc seminar on Day One (and those instructors are not exactly known for their conservative viewpoints, to put it mildly). The question would be how this uncritical and unscholarly perspective is used to inform the new curriculum at HW and elsewhere. Is it a perspective for analysis and commentary by high schoolers delving into original sources (APUSH, for instance, will include FRQ’s on the subject of propaganda) or is it the new canon? If the latter, that would be a big step backward in terms of scholarship. Students trained in this sloppy manner will have a rude awakening at UChicago.

1 Like
140

ETA to above: lest the response be that Western Civ was also the “canon” it’s important to point out that Western Civ is no longer offered at UChicago as it used to be taught, save one sequence during the academic year and another during the much smaller summer quarter. When Katy Weintraub retires, so will Western Civ. (It’s possible to reconstruct the subject using other Civ courses). The reasons had far less to do with ideology than methodology. Dean Boyer himself helps to teach the summer sequence so it’s not like it has been rejected as too white or European or Judeo-Christian. It’s that the methods of historical inquiry weren’t updated in the course so it didn’t keep up with the rest of the department or the development of history as an academic subject. It’s methodology that might remove one canon at UChicago, and it’s methodology that should be used to scrutinize CRT-based methods of historical inquiry. No perspective is immune to critique.

2 Likes