<p>What’s so great about MBB? Do they pay slightly more money? Or is it just some badge of prestige because it’s so hard to get at these places? My cousin works for Bain and he’s a huge dork.</p>
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This was a rough estimate told to me by my friend who recently graduated from UMich, was the president of a business fraternity there, and joined McKinsey as a Business Analyst upon graduation. I trust his knowledge of business recruiting at Michigan and I had to consult him when my younger sister was deciding between different colleges including Michigan.</p>
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How were you able to separate the regular MBB Engineering hires from the Huntsman hires? At any rate, based on the detailed statistical report on the Penn Class of 2013 that I have linked below, BCG hired 19 Penn students and 16 of them were Wharton-affiliated, leaving 3 hires who studied the liberal arts and/or engineering at Penn. The non-Wharton number for Bain is 6 (18 hired total-12 from Wharton) and the non-Wharton number for McKinsey is 4 (16 hired total-4 from Wharton). MBB hired 13 non-Wharton Penn undergrads last year which is fairly good and justifies the entire institution to be considered as a target school for these consulting firms (Wharton is obviously a super-target). I’m not sure the same could be said for Michigan LSA and Engineering.</p>
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I apologize for mentioning Penn, that was a mistake on my part. However, I think you are underestimating how strong the recruiting is at non-Wharton Penn. The College of Arts & Sciences plus Engineering are still target programs even if they are not at Wharton’s level.</p>
<p>A lot of this has to do with the fact that the average cohort of Penn students are much stronger academically than the average cohort of Michigan students so consulting firms and ibanks can recruit the entire institution rather than just the undergraduate business school If LSA enrolled a higher caliber of undergraduates similar to Penn, many more students would be picked up by BCG and Bain.</p>
<p>My cousin at Bain just texted me back and said “less than a handful go MBB from Michigan” [each year]. And said he wouldn’t be surprised if the majority of those have some MBB hook or connection</p>
<p>From my graduating class, I knew about 5 people in my major who got into MBB so I definitely think more than a “handful” of UM engineers get into MBB each year. </p>
<p>It is important to note that only 1 of those 5 people were non-EGL or non-SGUS students and he was the President of the Michigan Engineering Consulting Club.</p>
<p>To the OP, I would strongly, strongly recommend that you do EGL/SGUS and get a Masters if you want MBB. It is looked very favorably upon and I know for a fact that Mckinsey Operations Practice does not even recruit undergraduates. A masters might be an extra year but it is definitely worth it, especially if you do Tauber as well.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that EGL regularly organizes trips to consulting firms in Chicago to MBB, AT Kearney, Deloitte etc. so it will be a great opportunity for you learn about those firms, consulting in general and get to network with UM alumni.</p>
<p>For your original question of whether you should do IOE or ME, from my experience, it really does not matter for consulting as long as you do well in your major and succeed. The most important think should be that you are enjoying you studies as well as interacting with your classmates and faculty. Although many IOE students do pursue consulting, it is just as easy to break into consulting with an ME degree as plenty of people have done in the past (you can search those people on linkedin if you want)</p>
<p>And I would also suggest to drop the business minor because it is BS …</p>
<p>In summary, I would recommend that you should do whatever you like better (IOE or ME) but I would highly, highly suggest that you do get into EGL or SGUS and pursue Tauber since consulting firms really look favourably on that.</p>
<p>Just my $0.02</p>
<p>Let me know if you have any more questions!!</p>
<p>Best of Luck!</p>
<p>“about 5” from BBA = 2 or 3 people in your class had connections. be real.</p>
<p>2 got into BCG, 2 got into Mckinsey Operations and 1 got into Bain.</p>
<p>The person who got into Bain was a girl and not actually a Master’s student so it might give some hope to people who want to break into MBB as an undergraduate engineer.</p>
<p>I am not making this up and I know these people from my friends and acquaintances. Breaking into MBB is not as difficult as some people might think as long as you have good grades, F500 internships and maybe some other perks about you. I personally knew some of these 5 people and they had all been very interested in consulting for a long time and as a result, they had been extensively networking for quite a while as well. </p>
<p>If you are set on a goal and plan ahead, a lot of things can become possible…</p>
<p>How do IOEs do in placement to lower-tier and boutique consulting firms? After all, MBB isn’t the entire consulting industry (albeit probably the most prestigious).</p>
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</p>
<p>It seems like, just from some of the stuff I have read on here about those going into consulting/fincance/etc, it is all about the money and the prestige. It is a way for someone to signify they are better than someone else I guess. I mean, I thought about something like that while in school. Who doesn’t want to be a big shot? But it wasn’t for me. </p>
<p>Some of the more “select” or “prestigious” groups within the engineering school are pretty weird, arrogant, full of themselves, etc etc etc. For example, almost all of the experiences I have had regarding TBP have been awful and I am so glad I never joined as a Sophomore. Some people within engineering at Michigan let old habits from HS die hard. </p>
<p>“MBB hired 13 non-Wharton Penn undergrads last year which is fairly good and justifies the entire institution to be considered as a target school for these consulting firms (Wharton is obviously a super-target). I’m not sure the same could be said for Michigan LSA and Engineering.”</p>
<p>13 out of how many CAS and SEAS who graduate each year? 1,700? And yes, the same can be said of LSA and the CoE. They are targets too. Why would Penn CAS be a target and not Michigan LSA? Those are peer institutions. By the way, your 2-3 number for the CoE is incorrect. Your “friend” at Michigan is either misinformed or you misunderstood him. He perhaps meant to say 2-3 to each of the MBB trio (6-9 in total). From the CoE, I have always been told that the number of students joining MBB is closer to 7-10. My uncle, a professor of Civil Engineering, often mentions that a couple of his undergraduate students (Civil Engineers mind you) join the MBB firms every year. He recommends them personally. The current students that I know at the CoE confirm the figure is closer to 10. I am not sure about LSA numbers, but I know that McKinsey and Bain both recruit LSA undergrads on campus (LSA is a target for those two). Combined, I would estimate that MBB recruit 10-15 undergrads from the CoE and LSA annually. That would definitely make LSA and the CoE targets, which shows how difficult it is to get a job at MBB. Even at major target schools, only a small number of undergrads will be recruited. At least at Michigan, the number of students interested in Consulting and IBanking jobs is limited. Most Engineers are seeking (gasp) Engineering jobs. I know, it is counterintuitive. A large chunk of Michigan students just want to work in the Michigan/Illinois area, for biotech, IT or automotive firms. At schools like Penn, students bent on Banking/Consulting careers represent the vast majority of students seeking jobs. It is their sole purpose from the day they arrive on campus. You have those types at Michigan too, but on a much smaller scale. </p>
<p>“However, I think you are underestimating how strong the recruiting is at non-Wharton Penn. The College of Arts & Sciences plus Engineering are still target programs even if they are not at Wharton’s level. lot of this has to do with the fact that the average cohort of Penn students are much stronger academically than the average cohort of Michigan students so consulting firms and ibanks can recruit the entire institution rather than just the undergraduate business school If LSA enrolled a higher caliber of undergraduates similar to Penn, many more students would be picked up by BCG and Bain.”</p>
<p>I think you are overestimating Penn (and other private universities). 13 out of 1,700 undergraduates graduating from CAS and SEAS is not that great a number. You are also underestimating Michigan. LSA and the CoE are well recruited by McKinsey and Bain, relatively speaking. The CoE is also well recruited by Booz and BCG. Investment Banks focus a lot more on Ross, but that is not usual. The student populations at both universities are roughly equal in terms of quality. The average cohort at Penn is not much stronger academically. It is insulting to even suggest such a thing. Penn students have roughly identical high school records to Michigan students, and do only slightly better on standardized test scores. But 30-40 points higher on each section of the SAT or 1-2 points higher on the ACT does not make the student body at those private universities significantly better than Michigan’s. But even if there was a difference, the sheer number of students at Michigan who are of the highest caliber eclipses the number of brilliant students at Penn or any other university. </p>
<p>By the way, and this is something I have been saying for years. The quality of a student body means very little outside of the realm of 15-20 year old kids and the uneducated/superficial adults. It is easily manipulated and altered within the space of 5-10 years. While most elite universities went through their transformation in the 1990-2000 period, Chicago, JHU and Michigan experience the change later. Chicago and JHU in the 2000-2010 period and Michigan in the 2010-2020 period. If you look at the acceptance rates and SAT/ACT ranges of most elite universities (excluding Chicago) from 2009-2013, there was very little change. In that same period, Michigan’s acceptance rate dropped from 50% to 30% and its SAT range improved by 50 points and ACT range improved by close to 2 points. In the next 6 years, Michigan will likely have an acceptance rate under 20% and an SAT/ACT range identical to smaller elite private universities (1350-1550 and 30-34). But that will not improve Michigan’s reputation, no more than Chicago’s reputation improved between 2003-2012, during which its acceptance rate dropped from 45% to 8%. That’s because a university’ reputation is determined almost entirely by the strength of its faculty and academic departments. A university can raise the quality of its student body relatively quickly, but it takes decades to improve its standing in the academic world. Vanderbilt and WUSTL are two prime examples. They have been as selective as the Ivy League for a decade, but their reputations academically are nowhere near those of Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth or Penn. Their reputational scores have not changed one iota. Michigan’s reputation, on the other hand, is truly exceptional, and while there was a small gap in selectivity between Michigan and elite private universities in the 1990-2010 period (the gap did not really exist prior to the 1990s), this gap is quickly evaporating. In 5 years, there will be no difference in selectivity. That is already the case for international applicants, where Michigan’s admit rate is well under 10% and over the last two years, many students have been admitted into Columbia, Cornell, Penn etc… and rejected by Michigan. This is becoming very common for international students and is likely becoming more common for OOS applicants. It is just a matter of time before Michigan catches up entirely. But does it matter? Sure…if you are a teenager. </p>
<p>rockuang, AT Kearney, Accenture, Booz, Capgemeni, Deloitte Consulting and Oliver Wyman all recruit at the CoE. The college does not release the exact numbers, but they all recruit Michigan Engineers. </p>
<p>Linkedin is not a reliable source. In the case of Michigan, I have noticed that less than a quarter of the alumni update their profiles (not including Ross alums, who are more likely to keep their profiles up to date). Not sure about whether or not the CoE tracks those numbers…or if they would be willing to share them. But I agree that only top students are usually hired by companies like MBB. You won’t have many 3.3-3.6 students hired by them. They will usually restrict their interviews to students with 3.7+ GPAs.</p>
<p>It seems highly unlikely a student with an MBB offer wouldn’t put that on their LinkedIn. Everyone at my high school going to a top tier college made a LinkedIn to faux coy brag. Lol</p>
<p>Well you fill out a destination survey when you leave the CoE. Well, they ask you to. Idk how much of that is broken down and saved though. </p>
<p>You would think so stmarys14. But compare the Ross placement figures with linkedin contacts and you will see that even in the case of Ross, there is a significant lack of linkedin presence. For example, according to Ross placement data, since 2005, 102 Ross BBAs joined JP Morgan, 60 BBAs joined Goldman Sachs and 41 BBAs joined Morgan Stanley. That’s 203 BBAs in 9 to those three IBanks in 9 years. Check linkedin for yourself. I doubt you will find more than 30-40 of them.</p>
<p>Honestly, I feel like it’s pretty insincere to label LSA as a target for MBB, because realistically it isn’t. Just because 3 or 4 kids (maybe) are being placed into MBB each year out of the 3500 or so LSA graduates doesn’t make it a target for those firms. Engineering really isn’t a target either, because outside of EGL students and those in the Engineering Consulting Club, you don’t have a shot really. </p>
<p>My guess is the reason why UPenn CAS places so much better is because of the borrowed prestige with Wharton for consulting placement, as well as them having a way better career center than LSA at Michigan.</p>
<p>The students who are dual degree BBA/Engineering are the ones who wind up with the MBB jobs. LSA places maybe 3-4 kids each year into MBB TOTAL. Engineering is likewise as limited, though again, the ones who do accept are usually dual-degree students who are in the b-school as well.</p>
<p>r</p>
<p>@thestudmuffin, you are assuming a lot of students are gunning for these jobs. Whether or not they are a target will have a lot to do with how many get these jobs vs how many are actually looking for them. </p>
<p>Like I have said, I never really heard anyone talk about consulting within ME, and we were a pretty nice chunk of the total class. </p>
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Are you comparing all of Penn to Ross as if everyone at Penn is interested in getting banking and/or consulting jobs? According to Penn’s own career survey, only 60% of CAS grads pursued full-time employment and of those, 16% were in Finance and 18% were in Management Consulting. So out of 1,091 single degree CAS graduates, that’s about 370 total candidates so 13/370 is not too bad considering some of those applicants probably had low GPAs or were only interested in Finance jobs.</p>
<p>Just like any other private school, Penn will have a lot of students interested in law school, medical school, academia, journalism, etc. The same can be said of Michigan of course but U of M literally has 3 times as many LSA grads and sends even fewer total graduates to MBB so the odds are nowhere near as good as they are from CAS at Penn.</p>
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I’m not sure what constitutes being a “peer institution” but Penn is stronger at the undergraduate level since it has a more gifted student body, smaller classes, and more resources directly invested in undergraduate school. If we are comparing other components of the universities, Penn has a better medical school and business school while Michigan has a better engineering program. Their law schools tied. Michigan, on average, has higher ranked doctoral programs even though its unbelievably silly to bring up something like that since people generally only focus on one academic discipline at the graduate level so the quality of the rest of the university is irrelevant to them.</p>
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You have no evidence to back any of this up besides hearsay and anecdotes whereas everyone else on this thread agrees with me that it is exceedingly rare for a Michigan student to get a job at MBB unless he/she is in Ross and graduated from the EGL Masters program as 5th year engineers through the Tauber Institute.</p>
<p>There’s no point even arguing about this. U of M LSA and COE are not target schools for management consulting on the strategy side. Even a simple search on LinkedIn shows only 3 U of M students total landing a job at MBB in the last 2 years without belonging to those 2 categories.</p>
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This is all completely hearsay on your part as well. Even if a higher proportion of Michigan engineers were interested in Engineering-only jobs compared to Penn engineers, you would still end up with a greater total amount of Michigan engineers who are interested in jumping to Consulting or Finance since Michigan’s engineering school is so much larger than Penn’s engineering school at the undergraduate level (~1,450 undergrads a year vs. ~350).</p>
<p>A lot of Penn engineers go for jobs in IT, Biotech, Civil, and Mechanical Engineering firms as well as you can see from the career survey.
<a href=“http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/SEASSurvey2013.pdf”>http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/SEASSurvey2013.pdf</a></p>
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I’m sorry but this is utterly preposterous. Penn has a 96% 6-year graduation rate, 94% of its students were in the top 10th percentile of their high school, and has an SAT range of 2050-2,320 according to their 2013-14 Common Data Set.</p>
<p>Michigan on the other hand has a 90% 6-year graduation rate, 65% of its students were in the top 10th percentile of their high school, and has an SAT range of 1,910-2,210.</p>
<p>Penn’s ACT average is 30-34 while Michigan’s is only 28-32.</p>
<p>If you are insulted by the insinuation that Penn students are superior to Michigan students, then University of Wisconsin students should be insulted that they are not considered on par with Michigan students as well the differences between these three schools are equally large.</p>
<p>The most telling statistic is that only 65% of Michigan students were in the top 10% of their high school graduating class according to the USNWR while 94% of Penn students graduated in the top 10%. That, in itself, should show you that these undergraduate schools enroll students of a different caliber. </p>
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Chicago may have had a high acceptance rate in the past but it was still a very selective school whose students graduated close to the very top of their high school class and had strong test scores. They may have been lagging the Ivies and Stanford in that regard during the early 2000s but they were much closer in student body strength to the Ivies than Michigan has ever been.</p>
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Of course, that’s why Berkeley has a better reputation than Yale, maybe 20 state schools are considered better than Dartmouth and Georgetown, Wisconsin is considered better than Duke, UT Austin is considered better than Brown, UC San Diego is considered better than Rice, UCLA is considered better than Northwestern, and UNC Chapel Hill is considered better than Wash U.</p>
<p>Keep dreaming Alexandre! A university’s reputation is actually determined by the quality of students it enrolls and the caliber of graduates it produces. They are the true “representatives” of the university and are the actual alums, not the faculty who constantly float between different universities.</p>
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Why does it matter? Academic reputation matters at the graduate level when subject matter becomes specialized, not the undergraduate level where the material taught in each area of study is very basic. There will be better Chemistry teachers at Vandy than there are at Harvard and better Economics teachers at WUSTL than there are at Princeton. The research excellence of Harvard Economics professors doesn’t make them more uniquely qualified to teach undergraduate economics.</p>
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Yes and they also have perhaps the largest alumni network in Finance, Consulting, Hedge Funds, Private Equity, VCs, etc. in the world due to the excellence of Wharton. A proactive Penn undergrad in CAS will technically have access to every elite firm on the planet that recruits undergraduates as a result.</p>