Is a B.S. in nursing frowned upon by medical schools adcomm?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>BDM: I believe you must be sarcastic when you wrote:</p>

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<p>It is no joke to take the physics for the physics major, at least at my child’s school. I heard that everyting is derived rigorously from some axiom-like principles in that kind of course. Many aspiring physics majors decide to switch to a softer science major after they take that kind of course in their freshman year.</p>

<p>It is also interesting to learn from you that</p>

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<p>Just curious, what would be your estimate of the attrition rate at most top schools (e.g., Duke, Cornell, Harvard, Yale, Penn, Stanford, etc)? I suspect it is much lower - i.e. 70% attrition rate instead of 90%?</p>

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<p>Nope, that’s the one I took and it really was the easiest one. They go much softer on the kids whom they want to retain within the department.</p>

<p>Surveys of the Duke student body indicate that we have more students applying to medical school after four years than we have coming in by a margin of (IIRC) 40 students or so. I assume most top schools are the same way.</p>

<p>Of course, there’s some error involved in that – e.g. freshmen who are “secretly” premed or something like that. But that’s what the surveys show.</p>

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<p>“Nope, that’s the one I took and it really was the easiest one”</p>

<p>I would be interested in knowing what book you used for that class. Seriously. </p>

<p>Or Duke physics department is very, very eccentric.</p>

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<p>It was six years ago and I’m afraid I don’t remember the name of the book. We hardly used it anyway, relying heavily instead on lecture. The takeaway is that premed physics was the vicious one; engineering was intermediate.</p>

<p>The class for physics majors was intellectually the most rigorous, but let’s face it: introductory physics is pretty easy, materially. Large classes and tough curves make it hard – and those are always toughest in premedical courses.</p>

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<p>LOL… Introductory physics might seem easy, either because of the instructor, or the book used, but most of all, because you didn’t have to understand it that well.</p>

<p>I’m sure anyone from MIT who took the 8.012, 8.022 “introductory” physics sequences will tell you it’s freaking, no REALLY freaking hard (it’s the buffed up version of engineering physics courses). You think you know mechanics? 8.012 will prove you wrong. It’s not the material, but rather the problems and how complex/ yet simple they are.</p>

<p>I thought physics was easy also, until I met this book.</p>

<p>[Fisika</a> - I. E. IRODOV Problems in General Physics](<a href=“http://www.scribd.com/doc/4995623/Fisika-I-E-IRODOV-Problems-in-General-Physics]Fisika”>http://www.scribd.com/doc/4995623/Fisika-I-E-IRODOV-Problems-in-General-Physics)</p>

<p>[MIT</a> Admissions | Blog Entry: “What Though the Odds”](<a href=“http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/learning/freshman_year_pass_no_record/what_though_the_odds_1.shtml]MIT”>http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/learning/freshman_year_pass_no_record/what_though_the_odds_1.shtml)</p>

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<p>At my child’s school, the textbook for the lower track physics for the physics major (there is another one that is higher than this lower track one) is:</p>

<p>Wolfson and Pasachoff: Physics with Modern Physics and Basic Training in Mathematics, R. Shankar.</p>

<p>Talking about “Large classes and tough curves”, some premeds may add another one (as a joke :-)): Let the school find the worst teacher (BTW, sometimes he is a fellow from the Science Academy but he may have zero interests in teaching undergraduate) from the Chemistry department to teach these premed pre-reqs. It would be very effective in weeding out the aspiring premeds :-)</p>

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<p>Your statement makes no sense. Introductory physics is easy, materially. Of course it’s possible to generate impossible scenarios based on easy material. You could probably invent some algebra problems that I wouldn’t be able to do. That doesn’t mean the material is difficult, just that it’s possible to generate difficult questions.</p>

<p>Confusing the two issues doesn’t help explain your condescension; it just muddles your argument.</p>

<p>MIT’s difficulty is legendary (my father went there), but that doesn’t alter the underlying truth: that premedical classes don’t cover hard material but are difficult courses anyway. Your apparent disrespect for them only serves to emphasize the point: you’ve got a lot of very smart kids clustering into courses where the material itself is fairly simple.</p>

<p>And, second, that we’ve gotten very far off-topic while grinding an apparently irrelevant axe. I’m happy to continue discussing the issue at hand here or a separate thread you might wish to create discussing whose textbook is more difficult.</p>

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<p>My child seems to mention a similar point: There are just too many highly motivated students in many of his premed classes. You may think you understand the stuff well enough. But you are always wondering whether other premeds know even more than you do. Then, the professor may try to invent all kinds of tricky questions out of materials that are really not that hard (it is the orgo he referred to, BTW), with the goal of lowering the class average to 60 or something. Sometimes the professor goes overboard in devising tricky problems, and the class average of a test becomes as low as 45. Too many premeds become very low self-esteemed after they have been working so hard on preparing this test and still receive bad grades, and the professor himself may even feel bad about this. – We are talking about some abnormally sympathetic professor here, who you rarely have the luck to have as your professor.</p>

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<p>Hahaha, I second that statement BDM! Well I did learn a lot from you guys even though it didn’t necessarily pertain to my original topic. For example, I learned that I will greatly suffer in my future physics class. Thanks for the heads up. =/</p>

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<p>Go to Duke and take the 41/42 series rather than the 51/52 series. Worst of all is 53/54. =)</p>

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<p>vida supra</p>

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<p>sad isn’t it</p>

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<p>I would hope we do. At least we try to</p>

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<p>Wow, I disagree. If anything, presentation of difficult subjects is shied away from in introductory classes and delayed until later classes. I really doubt that professors make tests arbitrarily hard.</p>

<p>And having a class average of 45-60% gives students more of an opportunity to achieve higher than other students. I actually think it is better to give tests this way.</p>

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<p>You are a pre-med or medical student who has taken a introductory physics course for biology/premed students. These courses hide a lot of math from their students because biology/premed students aren’t expected to be very proficient with mathematics. That’s probably why you thought the material was easy. You can teach a subject at multiple levels of sophistication.</p>

<p>This is why faraday (and I : ) ) are getting so worked up. It would be like if I took a dumbed down elective in music not intended for music majors and then proclaimed " . . . playing piano is a piece of cake . . . "</p>

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<p>As I specifically mentioned, I took the physics class intended for physics majors, skipping past the premedical and pre-engineering physics courses because they were too difficult. I turned out to be correct.</p>

<p>Seriously, save your condescension. Physics is a very difficult subject. Introductory physics, like all introductory classes, is not.</p>

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<p>That’s really surprising. </p>

<p>Physics majors will use what they learn in their intro mechanics class for all 4 years of their degree and if they make a career of physics, for the rest of their lives. Premeds need to take physics to get rid of a silly requirement.</p>

<p>It doesn’t make much sense to me why a university would plan courses this way.</p>

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<p>As we just talked about:

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<p>Oh yeah, I forgot, premeds have it hardest. Sorry for insinuating otherwise.</p>

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<p>Your sarcasm is not lost on me, but nonetheless: premeds most certainly do not have it hardest. Their junior and senior years are no harder or easier than anybody else in their major. Engineers and chemistry majors and – yes – physics majors have brutal junior and senior years when premeds can be normal biology or (in my case) economics or English majors.</p>

<p>But when it comes to their freshman and sophomore year, that’s a correct statement: premeds do have it hardest. The gamut of organic chemistry, biology, math, and premedical physics is a gauntlet that no other group has to balance with curves that no other set has to manage.</p>

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<p>Silence_kit: A person who is good at physics/math is not necessarily good at the premed courses. I personally tend to be a physics/math person (when I was young :-)), but I know I will likely do horribly in many premed classes. IMHO, these courses demand a different kind of mental capability. Of course, you are free to have your own opinion that is different than mine.</p>

<p>Regarding what I mentioned about professors being difficult in their tests, I admit that I may have exaggerated it a little bit. But it is true that many of these professors will throw TONS of information at the students in rapid bursts and expect the students to get it, mostly by self-study, in a very short time. (I heard that at one time, the professor covered 6 chapters in one lesson, and the test is only two days away. In this case, it is partly because the professor is not very organized. But this National Science Academy Fellow just does not care – the students just have to survive that.) This is why an engineering person like me would consider these courses as not easy: These students have to absorb enormous amount of info in a very short time. Also, they need to get more As than Bs in an environment where many motivated students are in for an all-out-battle to get those precious As.</p>

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<p>BDM, your experience at Duke is definitely weird. At most other schools, “honors physics” or whatever it is called is tremendously difficult (the material. F= (dp/dt) is not the whole treatment of mechanics).</p>

<p>“premeds do have it hardest.” Not necessarily. Ambitious premeds who want to learn difficult material + their premed requirements will have it hardest. Sadly, challenging yourself is not rewarded in the eyes of med school.</p>

<p>I agree with silence_kit that many of those intro courses are actually “dumbed-down.”
And while premed curves are rough, so are many science/math courses (which have rough curves AND difficult material to boot). At MIT, the intro physics for physicists routinely have 50% of the people dropping (MIT people who signed up for that course are not average MIT students).</p>

<p>Here is a 2 possible premed schedules with very different difficulties. I don’t believe one is rewarded over another.</p>

<p>Fluff is anything taken for the sake of GPA boosting rather than educational value. Most often, GPA boosting course that require little/less work have lower educational value to the student. Your example at Duke was definitely the exception not the norm.</p>

<p>1st yr. Calc I, stats
Bio I, Bio II
Gen Chem I, Gen Chem II
Fluff, Fluff</p>

<p>2nd yr.:

  • algebra based physics I/II
  • Orgo I/II
  • Fluff, Fluff…</p>

<p>VS.
Let’s say a dude at MIT:</p>

<p>1st yr:

  • Honors physics (8.012/8.022)
  • Honors Chem (5.112) / Organic Chem (5.12)
  • Honors Multivariate calc (18.022)/ Honors Diff Eq (18.033)
  • HUmanities…</p>

<p>2nd Yr:

  • Organic Chem (5.13)/ Humanities.
  • Special Relativity (8.033)/Quantum Physics (8.04)
  • Waves&Oscilations (8.03)/ Statistical Physics (8.044)
  • Honors Algebra (18.701)/ Bio (7.012)</p>

<p>While those two schedules differ tremendously in difficulty, the former is rewarded the same way as the latter. I could have done both schedules for MIT students, but I don’t believe there’s even an algebra-based physics at MIT.</p>

<p>Now if an authority in med school admissions admits those schedules are not regarded in the same light, then there would be no fuss. Until then, in my eyes, there is a significant flaw to correct in med school admissions. The system should encourage students to challenge themselves.</p>

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<p>

Thanks for the condescension; I’m fully aware that there’s more than one law of physics. (If you’re using p to represent momentum, then your formula is wrong.)</p>

<p>We derived every formula we used from the ground up, including a basic formulation of quantum mechanics. The course was easier because the material is always easy and because we were in an extremely supportive environment: two professors and two TA’s for a class of 16 over ten hours a week ensures that no stone goes unturned as we’re learning.</p>