<p>I wanted to add the flip-side of this conversation involving my DH. He has been many things, and worked in diffferent small businesses as a manager, project leader, tech guy, etc. He always had the freedom to try and was able to use his intelligence and street smarts. It didn’t matter that he had no college degree. When we moved across the country, the lack of degree was a true barrier. He is a maintenance manager now-unable to find a position in property management without a degree. Even at 45 it mattered.</p>
<p>"the old american adage about success in business is to “find a need and fill it”. the college grad likely thinks this means you have to invent a better mousetrap, and that it requires a big corporation with research and marketing departments. but a more independent view is that you simply need to know what someone is needs/wants/uses, and figure out how you can provide it yourself. "</p>
<p>not everyone wants to or has the ability to be an entrepreneur. </p>
<p>I mean I’ve seen this experiment, on a mass scale. The hasidic community has largely avoided college, for religious/cultural reasons. A few become entrepreneurs and end up quite affluent. The great mass struggles in the lower middle class. An uncomfortably large number are in or close to poverty. And these are people with the same genetics as other Jews, and probably more grit and entrepreneurial energy than most “regular” Jews. In fact, in recent years, attending SOME kind of college - community college, Truoru (a private college in NY that caters to the Ultraorthodox), correspondence course, etc has become more socially acceptable, as families and religious authorities have become concerned about the growing poverty problem in the community.</p>
<p>“parents here are true believers in the value of higher education, and more than a few support the idea that education for its own sake is worthwhile. maybe true once, but is it really cost-effective for everyone today?”</p>
<p>Cost effective? you mean like dollars per unit of enlightenment? Seriously?</p>
<p>Its not equally effective for all. I would say the greatest synergy is between some amount of formal education for its own sake, and some degree of life experience/self teaching/informal pedagogy. But I am sure there are folks for whom the corner solution is best.</p>
<p>I have a middle aged friend who has been out of work for 2 years (he’s in HR). He firmly believes that his lack of a college degree has held him back. When times are tough and lots of people are looking for HR jobs, resumes without a college degree (even though you’ve got relevant experience) don’t make it past the first cut.</p>
<p>so, then…what? everybody should just buy that new car after all, right? i benefitted from one of those degrees (chem eng) that virtually guarantees lifetime employment at much better than average salary. but if a kid gets a ba in something like history or philosophy today, s/he will surely need to develop entrepreneurial skills before graduation - there will be no clearcut career path with such a degree. the formal job market probably can’t absorb all these college graduates anyway, so supply/demand and cost/benefit will determine the degree to which a college graduate will realize roi in higher education. otoh, there’s nothing wrong with knowing how to repair a transmission, or re-roof a house. as for everyone taking some courses at a community college - go ahead, if it’s of interest or helps get a better job.</p>
<p>I think some of you are missing the point of this discussion. After 5-10 years after someone has graduated college, doesn’t really know how to use their college degree to their advantage, and ends up getting whatever low paying job because they don’t have any skills, can’t you basically say the college degree wasn’t worth the time or money? </p>
<p>People go to college to either major in something that will give them a job such as nursing, or they get a degree in whatever field because they’ve been told by society that having a degree is better than not having a degree and that they’ll earn more money compared to a non degreed person, yet I’ve read so many articles about people who have degrees who never used them and the degree never helped them along the way in securing better paying jobs. So can’t you basically right off that the college degree was just a waste of time pursuing? </p>
<p>Is it worth getting a college degree that might never help you? Are you going to get a return investment on it?</p>
<p>You need to decide that for yourself. People get higher education for all sorts of reasons. Some might be looking for ROI relative to a job and a certain pay level and others maybe looking for enrichment, or they understand that it’s an entry card to something in the future or it’s a personal goal they want to fulfill or a half dozen other things. You seem fixated that the degree has to return within a certain short time period.</p>
<p>As far as they hypothetical twenty something, if it were my twenty something I wouldn’t much care what they did or how much moeny they made but they would not be living at home. In our family both my generation and my kids’ generation college education is a gift for kids to use as they desire but it is also the exit card to living in the “nest.”</p>
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<p>The assumption behind these question is that the worth of something can be measured only in dollars and cents. I can think of a lot of stuff I learned in college (or even high school for that matter) that never made me a dime in my life and never will. Yet some of that knowledge is of great worth to me.</p>
<p>Some of the “worthless” stuff I learned in college helps me understand the world around me in ways that I would be oblivious to without the education. Understanding some non-obvious connections. Having some sense of how society evolved over time. Understanding people and our culture and other cultures better. All this and a lot more comes from being an educated person. No one is going to pay you for knowing much of that, but knowing it will almost certainly help you live richer, fuller life.</p>
<p>With that in mind, I have trouble codemning any sort of legitimate education as “not worth it,” even the most arcane and unemployable Liberal Arts degree. Education has its own intrinsic value that stands outside of any monetary calculation.</p>
<p>ryhoyarbie:
i get your question exactly, a very good question for parents of kids who haven’t yet started college. but i don’t think you’re asking the question you need to ask, and you certainly aren’t asking it of the right audience. with respect to your current situation, the question you really need to answer is what to do given that you already have this degree that simply does not relate to very many jobs. (oh yeah, there are lots of hypothetical jobs that will be mentioned by folks who don’t seem to care if their - or more likely someone else’s - kid can’t get a job after spending or taking on serious debt of five figures for a liberal arts degree.) the answer to your question is: quit beating it about the lack of utility of a college degree and get more aggressive about making money. </p>
<p>i know a 45ish guy whose wife recemtly divorced him and walked away with the house, kids and most of the money. he had been a real estate salesman, but the market isn’t good so he lost his job. bad things sometimes come all at once. anyway, he started out taking any job that came along - the first being delivering pizza. and he added another job, and then another so he was working three jobs at the same time, and he kept looking for better work. as soon as he got a better paying job, he quit the lowest paying one. finally, he got enough space between himself and the wolf at the door, and was able to concentrate on more significant work. he left the real estate business, and is now managing a very fine restaurant (based in part on the fact that he had worked in the pizza business!). the point is, none of this related to college. work is something you do that someone else needs done badly enough to pay you to do it. sometimes this has to do with what you learned by reading a book. and sometimes, not.</p>
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Yes, but if you happen to enroll in a program leading to a bachelor’s degree in nursing, then your education is also geared to career. One presumes that most nursing grads will go on to get jobs as nurses.</p>
<p>But history majors don’t typically become historians or museum curators; philosophy majors don’t graduate and seek jobs philosophizing. The seek employment in other fields, but their educations have provided them with a broad base of cultural knowledge and strong thinking and analytical skills. </p>
<p>Because there are no want ads saying “philosopher wanted” – philosophy majors typically pick up other skills along the way, depending on what they see themselves actually doing to earn money.</p>
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But what do you mean by “using” a degree? I have an undergraduate degree in behavioral sciences, but I never had any intention of becoming a behavioral scientist (whatever that is). </p>
<p>I think some of these people who are dissatisfied with their jobs might benefit from working with a career counselor, to understand how skills from one area transfer to another, and how to identify the types of jobs and careers where their skills will transfer. For example, if someone majored in theater and enjoyed acting in college – but really didn’t pursue a career in acting – those acting skills might transfer very well to jobs in sales, public relations, or communications.</p>
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<p>It does, but a student or prospective student these days needs to be sure to avoid digging himself/herself into a debt hole that is very difficult to get out of. Or at least have a good idea beforehand what amount of debt (if any) needs to be taken on, and how realistic his/her chances of paying it off in a reasonable time after graduation are. No student wants to be the subject of a magazine cover story about “graduate with $150,000 of student loan debt and no job”.</p>
<p>This does not mean one has to major in a career-oriented field. A history major may go into school knowing full well that a history degree has little specific value for getting a job or starting a career, but be willing to do it anyway, while keeping costs and debt down and doing all s/he can to improve his/her job and career prospects even long before graduation approaches.</p>
<p>In contrast, some career-oriented students intending to go to medical or law school may not have thought about what to do if they do not get into a (good) medical or law school – many pre-meds do biology majors, which have little value in finding a job or starting a career (probably due to the glut of those who did not go to medical school), while those going to lower tier law schools may find law jobs harder to find and poorly paying compared to those going to top tier law schools. Some who go into engineering for the money quickly switch out after having trouble with freshman math or physics.</p>
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<p>I see where you are coming from now ryhoyarbie. That must be incredibly frustrating. Are you limited by geography? Would you be willing to move to a different location, or try to gain experience outside the country? Go to graduate school? Earn a more applied certification or diploma, that along with your degree, will make you much more marketable (than someone with only the diploma)? I realize you aren’t looking for advice here, but I’m trying to wrap my head around how you are taking minimum wage jobs in retail in Texas with your degree and not able to parlay it into a better overall situation (if not today down the road).</p>
<p>I would agree with you that if one is going to college for job training/pay, they might want to consider a trade where you may have way better job options and earlier jump on earning an income, or in lots of cases, a higher income. </p>
<p>I disagree that people only go to college to pursue particular training for a job or because they were told it would pay better. I honestly never went to college myself for that reason, nor thought about it that way for my kids. Our focus, however foolish it might sound, was for the education of the mind that a college setting provides. To make us different people. I TOTALLY appreciate your frustration but I do not see the ‘waste’ part of it at all (then again, not all degrees are alike).</p>
<p>Wait a minute, you said you are working as a substitute teacher. How does that not require a degree? Or pay less than $10 an hour? Am I missing something?</p>
<p>Also if you are working retail and think you aren’t getting into supervisory/management roles because you don’t have a business degree, you are misjudging the situation. It isn’t your degree (or lack thereof) that is in your way.</p>
<p>The substitute teacher job only requires either a high school diploma or 60 hours in college classes and pays about 10 dollars an hour. </p>
<p>As far as graduate school, it requires money and I do not have any money, plus there are a lot of people who do have a masters degrees who are unemployed right now. So I don’t know if continuing my education will help due to the climate of the economy.</p>
<p>I worked in retail in the past and they could have cared less if I had a degree or not, they weren’t going to promote anyone. I even had the pleasure of seeing someone at the place I was working at (not going to give the name of the company on here) where they were just hired, was five years younger than me, had a high school diploma, was only going to be in the store working for a few months before they went back to whatever college they were attending, and found they were making more money than me. I had been with the place for a year but left after I found out what the new person who was working in the same department with me was making.</p>
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<p>In NYC, you need a bachelors degree to be a subsitute teacher.</p>
<p>"Is a college degree really going to help you? "</p>
<p>-It has helped me. I would be unemployed without it. My company do not interview people for my position w/o 4 year degree. I love my job and I have tried different field in a past and I know it was wrong for me. So, I am at the right place doing what I love BECAUSE OF my collge degree.</p>
<p>-Now, my kids.<br>
My S. who wanted to quit after 2 years at college and just work in his field w/o having diploma (he knew that he could being in co-op program, he has been working at few places), has thanked me several times for NOT letting him quit and made him to graduate with diploma. I do not know about details of his situation in respect to having degree.
My D. is graduating with BS and going to Medical School next year. It has been her dream and she has worked very hard to achieve her goal. She is prepared to work even harder in a future to become an MD. Going to Medical School and becoming an MD is not possible without college degree.</p>
<p>Using my family experience (we do not have anybody, including grandparents without college degree), I say that college degree has helped all of us. Other families might decide otherwise, it is different from family to family.</p>
<p>The best information session I went to BY FAR was at Bowdoin … the admissions person was very open and straight in the discussion. One of the major points was Bowdoin is explicitly not training people for jobs … they want their students to find an academic field that interests them and which they find compelling … and then during their time at Bowdoin they will, one, become educated and, two, they will learn how to learn, think, write, research, communicate and pursue knowledge. And those skills are what send their graduates off on their career paths … (not career specific training).</p>
<p>I’ve been working 30 years and I have seen very few positions that required very deep topical expertise … 95+% of jobs can be learned fairly quickly and if I were the hiring manager I tend to hire the smartest most skilled person that came along as opposed to the less skiled person who already has the knowledge I can transfer fairly quickly.</p>
<p>"After 5-10 years after someone has graduated college, doesn’t really know how to use their college degree to their advantage, and ends up getting whatever low paying job because they don’t have any skills, can’t you basically say the college degree wasn’t worth the time or money? "</p>
<p>I see from your posts you are in North Texas, but I do not see what college you attended?</p>
<p>My sense is, that for a college degree to lead you to a good job/career you need A. A relatively more “marketable” degree B. You need to have attended a first, second, or maybe third tier school OR C. You need to be strong in the kinds of job search skills that calmom discusses, which help you transfer liberal arts skills to other areas. </p>
<p>If you majored in liberal arts at a lesser school and are weak in the skills/personality traits that make you a good job searcher (and a good prospect in the kinds of generalist jobs that liberal arts people can get) then I could well imagine your prospects are quite poor. If the college degree was free or close to it, and your had no intention after HS of getting training in one of the better paid trades, your ROI, though not great, is at least probably not a negative NPV. If you paid a substantial amount for college, OR passed up an opportunity to enter a skilled trade that appealed to you, I could see reason for considerable regret. </p>
<p>BTW, in virginia where I live, you also need a bachelors degree to substitute teach. </p>
<p>In fact here one parent must have a bachelors degree to homeschool - there are benefits to a bachelors degree even for a stay at home parent in some instances.</p>
<p>OP, you’ve written about how college hasn’t given you a pathway to a well-paying job. Aside from the issue of your paycheck, what is it that you’d like to do? What field would you like to work in? </p>
<p>If you’d like to stay in retail but you’d like to earn more, there are ways to accomplish that. If you’d like to find a full-time teaching job, there are ways to accomplish that, too. If you’d like to do something else entirely, that’s fine. A college degree in and of itself doesn’t automatically grant any of those outcomes. It just makes it easier for people to see that you can work hard and stick to commitments. </p>
<p>Choose a path, and ask people here for advice on how to move along that path.</p>
<p>So many are missing my point. btw- some get the degree plus job skills. A college degree is for YOU. Something no one can take from you. It is a set of experiences not available anywhere else. The degree proves you can stick it out through a number of courses with some in advanced ones, your major. The material may be learned from books or some from life experiences, but not with the people around you on a college campus. There is much more to life than material goods- money earned, etc. Where else can one spend 4 years being with a peer group and having the primary focus of life being academics? Where else is there a collection of peers to have random discussions with, as well as the focused ones of the classes? </p>
<p>Finishing the work required for a degree represents something. Coureur said it well. I wish more people would get out of the money is the only measure of worth mindset.</p>