Parents, can smart kids succeed without a college degree?

Parents Forum
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<p>I am having trouble with the idea that the only way to succeed and get a good paying job is to have a piece of paper. The only good way I can think of to explain it is "scam" and "politically correct". When I see the luxury resort-style campus apartments, the textbooks, rising tuition, all of the partying and general lack of motivation, and the professors who would rather be researching than having anything to do with teaching, along with all the grads unable to get jobs, it drives that idea further in my head. I am about to have a nervous breakdown about it which is why I am posting here instead of yahoo answers since I need some quality answers. </p>

<p>I am sure some of you know someone who has a great job WITHOUT a degree, that is not something like a mechanic, electrician, chef, etc. Indeed, whenever I hear advice from someone to go to a trade school I can't help but feeling like they're being condescending, no offense to those professions at all. </p>

<p>My theory is that a college degree is not a "hot ticket" to any job by any means but only opens up the door, so to speak. After the four years worth of knowledge is retained (and then very quickly lost...), the real differentiators are not on acquired knowledge but applying that knowledge. Is this true in any way?</p>

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<p>Yes, it is completely true. If you get an entry-level job at 18 and work hard, you can easily work your way up, in four years, to a higher paying and more important job than someone who goes to college for four years and then applies for a job. This requires drive and talent.</p>

<p>The big drawback to not attending college is that many occupations will be completely closed off to you forever. However, the good news is that college will not be closed off to you. You can always go back and get a degree if you feel that you need it later.</p>

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<p>Of course people can succeed (financially and otherwise) without a college degree - it happens all the time. The converse happens as well - many people who have college degrees don’t succeed. There are always stories of people who started at the bottom and worked their way to the top. I know a number of people who have succeeded in the technical field who don’t have a degree.</p>

<p>But the advice I’d give to a HS person - go to college and get a degree. In addition to ‘improving the odds’ to having a successful career, it’s a good way to spend those 4 formative years for those who take advantage of it (i.e. apply themselves, take advantage of their opportunities, don’t mostly party the time away, etc.). In addition, there are companies who do require that ‘piece of paper’ one of the requirements to being employed whether it’s reasonable or not.</p>

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<p>I’m just having a really hard time picturing why employers require a degree, other than elitism. I am willing to bet money that the ONLY factors affecting the value of a degree are the number of people who have them and are currently looking for jobs and the selectivity of the place they got it from.</p>

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<p>You have a point about the irrelevance of the learning represented by a college degree to success in many fields, but regardless, most professions these days have career pathways that are set up to require a degree, either literally or <em>de facto</em>. So if you really find the idea of going to college unworkable for you, you need to focus on career paths where the lack of a degree is not a serious obstacle. And the trades you mention feature prominently on that list, which is why you keep hearing about them. </p>

<p>I know a couple of people who became successful software developers without a degree–they both started college and dropped out. One of them was until recently the CTO of an extremely successful (as in, valued in the billions) e-commerce enterprise. He’s one of the most brilliant and erudite people I know, and one of the most financially successful–and he never finished college. So it can be done. But he broke into the field 20-some years ago; it might be harder now.</p>

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<p>Of course, just look at all of the self-made millionaires and billionaires in this world who either never went to or never graduated from college. </p>

<p>But it takes more than just brains. You have to have ambition, work ethic, patience, and even some luck. It’s pretty uncommon that you find the mix of all of those in any person, whether or not they went to college.</p>

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<p>Nowadays, many feel that the value of a high school degree isn’t very much. I think there are far to many entry level jobs that require college or some college, but employers have been burned with high school graduates that can’t read or do basic math and so some college seems to make that less likely.</p>

<p>Some people think that earning a college degree shows stick to itness.</p>

<p>I will say that there are lots of non-traditional ways to earn that degree and that going to a traditional 4 year school might not be for everyone.</p>

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<p>There’s also the simple fact that in some jobs, it helps to get the advanced training that you get in college classes, particularly jobs with heavy emphasis on math and/or science. I suppose the college level math you could try to teach yourself, but you’re just not going to have collegiate science lab facilities at your fingertips and even if you went to a good high school, your preparation in lab write ups/conducting experiments/working with advanced equipment, may be minimal. </p>

<p>Also, some employers need students with strong writing skills (really, all employers need this), they need people who can write a 20 page presentation, properly researched and footnoted. Some want people with a good grasp of the historical and political trends that concern their field. They want you exposed to various sources of research and comfortable with evaluating them. They want you to be able to understand business models and statistics. </p>

<p>There are good things to get out of college. Some of which you can also get on your own, but it just requires more self determination than most 18 year olds posses. But if you feel that you are one of those rare ones that can do it without guidance or formal structure, then it certainly is possible to go far.</p>

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<p>Standards are set to streamline the hiring process, and a college degree is often the minimum required for entry into high-potential careers. Of course, there are individuals who can do the same work and perhaps do it better without the degree, but in many established companies they simply will never get the chance. It is easier for these companies to recruit to these arbitrary standards than it is to interview thousands and thousands of non-degreed and often non-competitive candidates. Sort of like how college admissions mostly require a HS diploma.</p>

<p>If you have the personality to buck these rules meant to keep everyone without a degree in a certain place, or would happily for-go working at such corporations (including the largest and most successful) to go your own way, you can get going without a college degree. In particular, if you are entrepreneurial, have the skills and motivation to start your own company, and can support yourself throughout, then you may be more suited to taking this non-college path. It’s not easy, but it may be right for you.</p>

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<p>It is a basic screening process to see whether you have basic skills and are reasonably disciplined to give your profs what they wanted. They extrapolate this to conclude that you probably are willing and able to jump through whatever hoops a customer would demand.</p>

<p>The only people that might get away with not getting a bachelor’s are computer programmers. Also, entrepeneurs can but they need to have a source of initial funding. If they don’t have connections or family money, they too would be better off going to college.</p>

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<p>Of course you can. It’s just that it is limiting. A lot of jobs require that piece of paper to make it past the personale department. So when times get tough, those without that piece of papers have fewer options. My son worked in retail with many very smart college drop outs. It’s a horrible life as a middle manager in such places, because they periodically do a sweep, firing anyone making too much money, replacing them with lower cost folks. The same ones go from Best Buy to Staples to OfficeDept, scrambling for those jobs. The college grads tend to find something out of this ring eventually, but that piece of paper is usually what does it. Heck, around here you need a degree to become a cop or a fireman, so even alot of the blue collar regular paying jobs require college these days. </p>

<p>A friend of mine is married to a plumber. He dropped out of college, went into his father’s business and is making more than most college graduates as a co owner now. But he is truly the one eyed man in the world of the blind when it comes to contracts, business, and other things. So many talented workers that are not well versed in paper work lose their shirts in small businesses each year. My friend says that her husband has absolutely no desire to pass on the business to his kids. He wishes he had jobs like most of his former classmates but without a degree, he was/is not in the running. He wants all of his kids to graduate college and is willing to pay for selective, well known school, this guy who dropped out of college , hated school and is now financially way up there in terms of income and assets. He’d rather see his son as teacher or analyst in a college degree job than sharing the wealth of his well regarded business and passing it on to him.</p>

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<p>OP, you imply that something being a “great” job is that it pays well. It’s not condescending to say that the skilled trades qualify. The owner of “our” auto repair shop used to live on our street, but has moved up in the world. :slight_smile: The roofer who did our house 13 years ago seems to have a total lock on all roofing business in our area–we see his signs everywhere. The tree surgeon, the electrician, the plumber, the carpenter–all these guys are doing just fine. </p>

<p>There’s also retail and customer service. Real estate. Someone with a modicum of people ability who’s willing to put in the work can move up into management and/or ownership. The military. </p>

<p>As others have said, it’s a credential that says you meet some standard of diligence and training. Having several years of real-world work experience as mentioned above, with increasing levels of responsibility, is another possibility.</p>

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<p>It is true that some students squander the opportunities that college presents them by slacking off, partying all the time, taking only the easiest courses, and so on. But not all of them behave that way, and there’s no reason you have to be one of those students. Go to the best school you can get into and afford and do very well there, and you will acquire many skills that will serve you well in work and in life. That’s what you’re getting in the end, not a “piece of paper.”</p>

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<p>Here’s the deal. I can’t stand bureaucrats. That is really the heart of the issue and why I kind of made the thread. I wholeheartedly believe college is excellent at training bureaucrats and feel like all that textbook learning will prepare them for their by-the-manual bureaucrat jobs. What if I don’t want to become a bureaucrat? Aren’t there any other options for me? What if I want to get into something like corporate strategy? Then again I guess there is a manual for corporate strategy. So what is a career or something where there is no manual and requires thinking on your feet?</p>

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<p>Sithra, I personally feel that my college education was not at all about going by-the-manual–it was all about developing critical reading/thinking/analytical skills. I had maybe 3 classes out of 35 that were focused on rote learning of anything. High school, I think, was much more about the rote. </p>

<p>Perhaps this is not true of every major or every institution, but this was my experience.</p>

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<p>Your school is ranked so highly that it’s moved past the bureaucracy level into the elitist level. Is there any way I can persuade employers that I am as smart as you are to let me into the elitist ranks save showing them my ACT score?</p>

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<p>A college degree is often not job training (though it certainly is for many jobs, such as nursing, engineering, accountancy, law, computer science specialists, physicians, chemists, librarians, physicists, pharmacists, statisticians, actuaries, economists, biologists…to name a few). Someone in our society has to build our bridges, create new machinery, develop new drugs, determine weather patterns and predict natural disasters, save dying species, interpret ancient languages engraved on archeological remnants, figure out safer ways to perform surgery, determine efficient transportation logistics, provide translation services, teach the next generation of kids, and ensure our food is safe. And so on and so on. I imagine if we stopped offering university education, we’d stop being able to provide the above. </p>

<p>And even when a particular degree is not directly tied to a particular job, it can provide a breadth of education which makes you more competent for a lot of occupations. Granted, you get a different kind of education in the work world, and also one can get zero education by barely skimming by, and taking the bird courses in a party school in a lame major. But there is no question that if you want to spend your years and $$ wisely, depending entirely upon you and your choices, you can get a gigantic amount of education from your college experience that you simply won’t get elsewhere. </p>

<p>If you have not yet experienced college, it would be hard for anyone to explain its value or why employers value it. But it is often it is far far more than “just a piece of paper.” </p>

<p>If you think college is irrelevant, then you probably found highschool also irrelevant, no? Or is it the case that even though you often didn’t see what you were taught as relevant to a particular occupation (‘why do we need to know this!?’), maybe you realize you are much more generally educated and employment ready than you would be now if you had dropped out in the 8th grade. </p>

<p>No idea what to say about your fear of becoming a bureaucrat. Perhaps I don’t understand the definition you are working with. Maybe you view of work comes from Dilbert, or your belief that everyone is working as a drone or a small cog in a big corporation, merely moving paper around until the next layoff cycle? Let me go down my street and tell you about the occupations: teacher, insurance salesperson, professor, founding member and still active member of Greenpeace, elected politician, marine biologist, painter (who also runs art classes), museum curator, entrepreneur who owns two high tech companies, computer scientist who has written several books. Some needed the knowledge learned at school beyond the piece of paper, some did not. But which one is the bureaucrat you fear becoming?</p>

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<p>They don’t only care about you being smart. They also want to know that you can follow through and produce a sustained effort. A track record showing you’ve worked in the real world will do that. Or, a college degree. Take your pick.</p>

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<p>I’ve been through two years of college and yes, I thought they were a complete waste, along with high school and middle school. I’ve basically been biding my time ever since 6th grade. I am the exact same person I was in 6th grade, only way more bored and cynical than I was then.</p>

<p>My view of the world is information by itself is absolutely, completely, and totally useless. Come to think of it, isn’t the real reason we are in school 6 hours a day 5 days a week 4 weeks a month 9 months a year for 12 years indoctrination? I mean, are you telling me you didn’t think that was a complete waste of time? Either it was almost a complete waste of time, or I have to completely change my life philosophy.</p>

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<p>This is true, but in many instances it is harder to do it later because by then you have taken on financial and family obligations that are difficult to reconcile with being a college student. </p>

<p>My father, who was born in 1921, managed to have a satisfying career in which he worked his way up to a management role without a college degree. But he made a point of saying that at least in his field (manufacturing), his was the last generation where this was possible. None of his colleagues who were a generation younger were placed in roles with significant responsibility unless they had a degree (as well as plenty of relevant experience). And you’re a generation younger than those people!</p>