@suzy100, you clearly didn’t read my post. I personally took on the equivalent of $80,000+ to fund my own undergraduate degree, and also paid for my graduate degree in full. So, yes I do know what it means to place a bet on yourself and take on debt. And I would do it again, because it opened opportunities that never would have existed had I attended my state flagship or not gone on to graduate school. There is a very substantial difference between taking on debt to fund a Trump University diploma or a low tier college/graduate school degree, and taking on debt to fund an elite university degree. You are taking on debt to develop the most precious thing you have, your mind, at the highest possible level. Your way of thinking evolves as you go through a crucible, and the opportunities on the other side are vastly expanded (because of what you believe you are capable of and because of the doors the degree helps open).
But we aren’t talking about a “Trump University” diploma. Why did you even introduce that? Scratching my head here. I don’t get it.
I’m going to advise against that kind of debt, whatever the institution so we shall agree to disagree. I would never let my kids do that, and I wouldn’t co-sign those loans.
@Roycliffe I think many of the responses here have given you a lot to think about. And right now it looks like it might be coming down to 1) will your parents be willing to co-sign loans and 2) what do you think you want to do with your life?
-
If your parents won’t co-sign loans and you physically cannot find the money to attend Duke, that’s actually a firm barrier. If you can’t do it, you can’t do it and you should happily take your full-ride with no regrets.
-
As a recent graduate, I will say I feel the value my Duke degree has continued to appreciate over time. If nothing else, I feel like the Duke name affords me the benefit of the doubt wherever I go. I can’t tell you how true it is or if it even makes tangible difference, but I feel that when I say I went to Duke, people stop and give me a second look.
As I alluded to in another post on financial considerations, a lot of it comes down to cost vs fit. Duke has the potential to change your life in ways you can’t even imagine right now - and it’s the scholarly communities, the focus on personal growth and finding your purpose in life, the exposure to the diversity on campus, the way you think about setting goals and going after them can change dramatically - and when I come home for breaks and reconnect with my high school friends who went to state schools, I see a drastic difference between us. I know it sounds snobby and elitist, but it doesn’t make it any less true. And if my children were in the same shoes 25 years down the road, I would do whatever it takes to help them have this experience.
Now if the fit isn’t right, then no amount of debt is worth it. If you simply want to go to college, get your degree, become a functional member of society and obtain financial security, Duke might be more trouble than it’s worth. If you plan on staying in Florida and you know companies in Florida hold the institutions you consider in high regard, there’s nothing to lose by taking the full ride. Duke is trying to develop the next generation of philanthropists, thinkers, scientists, innovators, etc etc etc, and a lot of that is reflected in the curriculum. It’s not really a place where you take classes to become trained to do a specific job post-grad (You’ll be super competent/be able handle 90% of anything that comes your way though).
Look at your offer from Duke to see if it already includes the direct loan ($5500). If so, you are looking at $80k plus the $27k in direct loans. I just did a very rough repayment calculation of $107k at 6% interest (so no including any interest that would have accrued during your time in school and guessing at a 6% average interest rate) and it is almost $1200/mo. That’s rent or a mortgage payment every month for 10 years, and you’d still have to pay rent, a car payment, utilities, medical, taxes…Life on the other side is expensive.
If you want a Duke degree, get your free undergrad degree from UF or UCF and then pay for a MBA from Duke. Even better, get your free degree and then get your employer to pay for you grad degree.
Oh, and you are at least the third post I’ve read in the last hour about Duke no giving enough aid. To me that means Duke is not going to find more money for students, even if they ‘need’ it.
@twoinanddone Isn’t it much easier said than done…“If you want a Duke degree, get your free undergrad degree from UF or UCF and then pay for a MBA from Duke.”? We can all say get any undergrad then pay for grad program at Harvard or Stanford. One, it is not easy to get into the top grad programs. Not only the acceptance rates are low, there is a first level hurdle of high GPA and Score (e.g. GMAT, LSAT) requirements; Two, graduate degrees (e.g. MBA, JD) ROIs are poor if it is not from one of the top schools (e.g. M7, T14).
In general I don’t understand this general push towards undergrad education at low cost approach, especially on CC. I am referring to cases where people have choices like Duke. While cost is an important factor, there are many other factors to consider when it comes to college and the long-term return. Just because it is cheaper doesn’t mean good. We have all seen too many get lost in large, public environments. There is no doubt, outcomes at the privates like Duke are much better than large publics, at the undergrad level.
@am61517 I’m a computer programmer by trade. I can tell you that the field of technology simply doesn’t work that way. You could graduate as a literature major at a liberal arts school and as long as you have proficiency in a mainstream programming language, you’ll find a job out of college.
Adding on to the @coolguy40 - if you’re willing to take on that debt for the prestige of a degree from Duke, then go for it. There are some doors it will open for you that your other options won’t. However, not going to Duke does not mean you are resigned to a career sweeping floors - it just means you have to hustle and prove yourself more to get where you want to be.
If you are serious about wanting a degree in CS, the Duke name doesn’t really carry the same prestige as it does in many other majors. At least in the area, NC State computer science grads are the most highly sought after. A significant number of jobs in tech don’t really depend on where you got a degree or what the degree was. At my last job (granted, it was at a small company, not a huge one that uses applicant tracking software), the senior solutions architect had a J.D., and the senior technical architect never finished his degree. What they had in common was a keen technical aptitude, a desire to learn new technology, and persistence to stick with a problem until they figured it out.
Another other option came to mind. My parents did not contribute to college either. Undergrad was very tough … graduated with big debt and 19 IRS W-2 forms. Do you have a wealthy relative? My much older brother helped me get through engineering school. I paid off my various loans by age 33 and his was the first I paid off.
There is nothing wrong with debt, if you keep ROI in the back of your mind.
@am61517 I am very well aware of the competition it takes to be graduating from one of those elite schools in India, there are thousands of other people who did not get an undergraduate degree from those elite schools, who still managed to secure a elite school graduate program and have done very well. Some of the immigrants from India are from rural areas who have worked hard to secure a college degree and moved to USA for graduate school and have been successfully employed.
The point I am trying to make to OP is that you don’t have to go to a big name school to be successful. It doesn’t guarantee anything, the only thing that guarantees success, is your work ethic, your drive to be successful and your ability to take risks and be resilient.
Not everyone who goes to HYPSM, Duke or other schools become CEO’s either.
@doneinamonth, you are correct, “your work ethic, your drive to be successful and your ability to take risks and be resilient,” are critical to success. What we are talking about here is taking one of those important risks you mention. There will always be outliers on every bell curve, but the bell curve of outcomes for Duke undergraduates overall is likely to be very significantly to the right of the bell curve of outcomes for a Florida state university.
I am curious. Did it ever occur to all of those recommending a mediocre state university over Duke for a savings of $80,000, that the reason over 50% of Duke parents are full pay is because most attended an elite university themselves giving them the opportunity to build financially successful careers? I suspect most of the FP parents began very modestly, but were able to effectively leverage an elite university experience and degree. I also often wonder if those recommending the state university alternative have actually attend an elite undergraduate, or if they are simply reflecting a naive self justifying bias.
As far as the CS commitment goes, I’m not completely married to the idea. It was just a preliminary choice to focus myself.
If I do attend Duke through loans then, would changing my major to a program Duke is more known and respected for make the choice easier to justify?
Also, no wealthy relatives unfortunately. But to clarify my own situation more; my dad is the only one earning a paycheck in my immediate family. He had double knee surgery recently and that sidelined him from his job the majority of 2017 and therefore meant he made much less. He has gone back to work recently, but he can no longer work the long hours and overtime he used to and thus he will still see his earnings drop. None of this was reflected in the 2016 financial documents requested for the application. Could it have an effect?
@Roycliffe Long story short. Dear friend has a child graduating from Virginia Tech (State School…GASP!!) with a signed offer of 6 figures at a big west coast based company in CS…signed offer came after junior year internship, also obtained from VT job fair, after several other lucrative internships from other highly regarded companies previous years. Several got ‘the offer’ after the summer… but that did not include the kid from the ivy school so you can take that ‘only elite’ matters for what it’s worth
just to add as I re-read your last post. I would be happy to help my children in any way I could, however, I couldn’t put that much of my credit in limbo and don’t think my children would even ask me to. My home will be needing a new roof soon and a few other needed repairs so to risk being too extended on my credit, which I may need in the future, would be foolish. It sounds like your father is in a situation that is putting his ability to earn a living in jeopardy. Anyone who is suggesting that you put your family in such a position as to put a strain on that for Duke is not giving you sound advice.
@Roycliffe I think something to keep in mind here is the financial aid package will change every year. It’s very possible that your financial aid package would look substantially better next year as your dad’s income drops and medical expenses go up on the 2017 filings. It’s also very possible that your situation won’t change at all due to other assets that make their way onto the profile. Because all of this is hard to predict, you may end up taking out more or less than what you’re thinking right now.
But like @WithGrace said, financing an elite education is stressful and the whole family has to be on board. Everyone should have a game plan and be clear about bottom lines, crunch the numbers, and the answer will become very clear very quickly. If you got into Duke, you most likely have traits/personality/work ethic/skills that will enable you to succeed anywhere you go. Graduating debt free from undergrad will put you ahead of the game in life.
Anecdotally, several of my closest friends had said through our time at Duke that yes, being in that much debt is terrible but they still think they made the right choice. Two years out, they’re still in debt and still don’t regret their decision. However, the common denominator is the supportive family who made immense sacrifices and of course my friends worked really hard during the year as well as in their summer internships to earn money.
@Roycliffe, If your financial circumstances have changed significantly in 2017 (particularly if they changed in a relatively permanent way - i.e. reflecting changes in your father’s circumstances) you need to go back to the financial aid office, provide them with a comprehensive update, and see if they will work with you to make Duke a viable alternative for the coming year (as well as for future years).
At Duke, you don’t declare a major until the end of your sophomore year, giving you two years to explore your passions and interests before doing so. You will also find the CS major is stronger than you anticipate although the emphasis will be more strategic than tactical.
@Roycliffe, don’t drink the Duke kool-Aid. A degree in Comp Sci will be marketable and not significantly less salary from UF out of college than same degree from Duke. The school doesn’t make the success, the student does! Do well at your State school and you may have a free ride/grant/fellowship to go to grad school at an elite college later. Also, do you really want to be the student who is pinching pennies among the wealthy full pay students at Duke? Putting yourself or your family into $80,000 debt for an undergraduate degree is unreasonable. If it were $15,000 to $20,000, an argument might be made but not $80,000. I say: GO GATORS!
I want to comment on a few things that were said above:
“it is extremely unlikely to have happened if I had attended the alternative, my state flagship.”
At the risk of repeating myself from several other threads, when I was a graduate student at a highly ranked university (significantly higher ranked than Duke – although Duke is a great school) there were students there who had done undergrad at a very wide range of other schools. Many had done their undergrad at their in-state public flagship.
I work or have worked with a lot of CS majors. The UMass graduates and MIT graduates and Stanford graduates and UNH graduates work alongside each other all the time, and no one cares where anyone went to university.
If you go into investment banking, the situation will be quite different.
Given your Dad’s injury, you could try appealing your financial aid from Duke.
$80k is a lot of debt. It is likely to make graduate school not happen, constrain where you will take a job after graduation, restrict you to studying a major that leads to an immediate lucrative job after graduation, and still take quite a while to pay back. If you choose to go this route, you need to be very sure that you won’t max out your’s and your parent’s ability to borrow money before you manage to graduate. I have heard of a small number of cases of students running out of money after 2 or 3 years and having to drop out of school with massive debt and no degree.
UF is quite a good university.
I agree totally with @am61517 If the OP is able to afford attending Duke, despite the $80K debt, I would choose Duke over the other schools he was accepted into. In the long term scheme of one’s career, assuming the student is very motivated and have great goals for him/herself, the $80K plus whatever more accumulated for possible grad school is not much. As mentioned in one of the above posts, attending an elite school will likely open up a lot more doors and give the student a significant edge over students from non elite schools. Majority of my friends who graduated with me from an Ivy league school have nearly all been extremely successful, despite the large debt they acquired during undergrad and grad school. $80K will not be a problem for them, and most have already paid off all their school debts. However, my friends from high school who attended state schools and/or “non elite” colleges are not in the same boat as my college friends. Some are successful, but majority are not. For them the $80K would be a great long term burden.
To the OP, I would definitely go to Duke. You’ll make friends there who are very driven to succeed. The name Duke next to your name for the rest of your life will make people, esp schools and employers, look at you with a little more respect. If you live in the present, 80K is a lot of money. But just think of it as a small investment in your future, because once you start making well into six figures a year, the 80K would have been only be a minor monetary investment in your future. Heck, most of my college friends just write a check for $80K for a nice car. Don’t let these other people scare you into straying away from choosing Duke. If you weren’t accepted by Duke, then it’s a different story. You are a Duke accepted student!
That would only be the case with very shallow people who prefer to look at a name rather than the person. Once you have your first job you will be judged on your performance, not your pedigree. This is especially true in a field like computer science.
Exactly what @TomSrOfBoston said!