Unfortunately there are many shallow people out there. More than we would like. In this very competitive job environment, any little thing that will help to grab another’s attention will help.
It seems shallow and obtuse to suggest that $80,000 would be a “minor monetary investment” for the OP who has indicated he and his family do not have that kind of money on hand. To suggest that a Duke degree will assure that he will be writing checks for $80,000 cars without a second thought, is equally absurd. Hey, Duke couldn’t even make it to the finals this year. They are trending down :-).
Actually, Duke did make it to the “finals” this year, the Midwest Final. ;))
I’m not one who believes that the only good schools are the top schools. My sister was a partner at a Wall Street firm and she went to a, gasp, lower rated law school. My niece’s BFF turned down a T-14 school for another with better financial aid. She’s on law review, has some office (president of her class? of the student gov?) had a wonderful internship, is going to clerk for a federal judge and then has a job at a DC firm waiting for her.
The OP’s options aren’t Duke of some mediocre state college. The Florida schools are very good. If the OP had $80k to spend he wouldn’t have asked the question. It’s a lot of money.
OP, call Duke financial aid and ask them to reconsider your package given your father’s situation. If they won’t, go to UF and don’t look back. A Duke degree will not guarantee success or riches. Your efforts and a little luck will. I have two top 10 degrees and make really good money. But so do all the state school grads I work with. There are more of them than people like me, in fact. Some even make more than me. A lot of students I went to school with also live happy fulfilling lives but don’t make as much. They work in non-profit, for the goverment, are professors, etc. Career choice has more to do with income (since that’s a CC obsession) than the school you attend. $80k in debt is crippling and the ROI just isn’t there.
If simply being a CS professional is the end goal the best approach may be to skip college, go to an IT bootcamp for 12 weeks and then get a job. If one is going to bother spending 4 years of their life in college, those years should be spent laying the most solid foundation possible for a successful future.
It is amazing how often anecdotal evidence from the tail of a bell curve is used to justify unsustainable conclusions. Yes @twoinanddone you can become a partner at a top law firm if you graduate at the very top of the class of a non-T14 top 50 law school, but look down the roster of partners at any Big Law firm and it is predominantly T14. As a student at HBS I don’t recall a single classmate from a Florida state university although there were a small number from UMichigan, UCBerkeley, UCLA and UVA (and even one from Penn State (who had been elected student body president while at Penn State)), so the idea that you can save your money in undergrad and easily apply it for many top graduate degrees is also naive. Again, look down the partner/Managing Director roster at the top strategic consulting and investment banking (M&A and corporate finance) firms and you will find the rare outlier among a list dominated by top school MBAs and Ivy/Ivy equivalent undergrads.
At the end of the day, there are professions where it may not make much difference where you received your degree (as apparently is the case for @itsgettingreal17) and those where having an elite school degree is almost a prerequisite. The question is, is saving $80,000 worth reducing the efficacy of the four years spent in college and the set of alternative professions readily available to you, particularly if through many of those professions the $80,000 can be repaid easily out of the associated incremental earnings.
I do agree with @itsgettingreal17 and others who have made similar suggestions that there is a very valid case to be made for getting additional aid in the 2018/19 school year and it needs to be pursued vigorously.
@am61517 I’ve already had this discussion on another thread, so I won’t spend much time on it again here. But please don’t scare the OP or any other student that any profession is closed to them if they go to UF. While IB and MBB may recruit most heavily at Duke and similarly ranked schools, those schools are not the only path to those short-lived careers. And ths OP has not even indicated an interest in either. So why bring it up in every single discussion??? Some parents are obsessed with these careers. The overwhelming majority of students are not. And bringing it up in every single discussion is putting unnecessary stress on students, most of whom have no idea what they want to do with their lives, and most of whom will not end up in those careers. Many CS majors will also change majors. No wonder students and some families believe it’s elite school or bust. We really need to change the narrative.
On a side note, a business analyst at MBB would have a very hard time servicing $80k in debt. Most who go into IB last 2 years on average. They also will struggle to pay off $80k in that short time. I wish people would stop recommending students gamble with their futures by taking on such life-changing debt at such young ages. It really makes me sad that any adult would give such bad advice.
@am61517 And as for law firms, again, another obsession. Big law is a hard way to make a living. Don’t believe me? Go look at the alcoholism and divorce rate of big law partners. And talk to their children. So why the obsession? Most students don’t even aspire to work in big law and definitely don’t aspire to be a big law partner if they start out there. Most lawyers don’t work in big law and are very successful and happy.
@itsgettingreal17, my comments about investment banking, strategic consulting and Big Law were in response to the post by @twoinanddone. That said, they are three of many alternative paths more easily navigated out of an elite university (many employers receive such high volumes of resumes they need to do an initial screening based on the simple criteria of university reputation). Yes they are tough professions, but so are all paths that lead to significant financial success. I disagree with your assertion that an MBB analyst would have a hard time servicing $80k of debt (particularly if they apply their roughly $20k annual bonus directly to loan repayment). Yes, most consulting or investment banking analysts either go back for business school or leave for something different. What you are omitting is that the training received at a Bulge Bracket IB or MBB/equivalent is the best generally available preparation for understanding and thriving in the business world and the vast majority go on to very successful (and lucrative) careers. I speak as a former top tier investment banker with a brother who is a senior partner at a top law firm, so I do understand these fields and how they function.
@itsgettingreal17, I have to disagree with your premise that the options available to a student are the same from an elite undergrad versus an average state flagship. They simply are not. The educational experience (and exposure) is different, the contacts made are different and the accessibility to career choices is different. Money is not everything, and to encourage young men and women who have been blessed with a potentially life changing opportunity to discard what may be the path to their most fulfilling life alternatives at the tender age of 18 is irresponsible (unless all options have been explored and it is truly not possible). The bell curve of outcomes are substantially different and to suggest otherwise does a severe disservice to these very blessed high school students.
There have been some studies that show high performing students tend to have similar outcomes regardless of whether they go to a more or less elite school. This suggests that the post-graduate success of schools like Duke have more to do with the quality of students they attract coming in than what the degree actually confers on them when they graduate. There is also some research that shows the importance of majors, particularly as you get below top schools.
That said, there are fields where going to an elite school has clear benefits. Investment banks focus their recruiting on what they perceive as top schools. When you get to the top law schools, you will see very high representation of elite schools. My view is this is because all applicants will have high LSATs and GPAs, so the tie breaker will be school reputation or another factor. Medical school seems more democratic to me, because it is may be more difficult to get a high GPA in all the pre-med classes typically taken. Graduate business school weighs employment prior to entering the MBA program fairly heavily.
Another thing to keep in mind, though, is that some of these fields can be a true grind. Trying to become a law partner can be a long, hard grind. Investment banking and consulting can be a grind and people can’t wait to get out after a short period of time in many cases. It is an absolute grind to get through medical school. You need to really like what you do in these areas.
Clearly, if you want to be a teacher or work in non-profits or other fields that may not have the potentially large payoffs of being an investment banker, you want to keep your debt down. It will be a burden to you for quite a while.
I have found in high tech, where I work, that no one really pays any attention to where people went to school after initial hire. I can’t even remember the last time anyone mentioned it. The focus is on you and what you know and can do.
@IzzoOne, well said!
Sorry to hear that you hae such an unmotivated set of friends in high school.
I am surrounded every day by many successful people. Honestly, I couldn’t tell you where most of them went to college. I’m pretty sure most of them did not go to “elite” schools, as I have found that those are the folks who are most likely to tell you where they went to college.
As I said before, “elite” schools can help open some doors. But by attending a “non-elite” school, you can still build a successful future.
Think about it - how many slots are available in elite schools every year? A pretty small percentage. How many successful people are out there? Well, I guess it depends on how you define success. If you want to be president or on the Supreme Court, then the % who went to elite schools is pretty high. If you want to make a good living, have a nice house, be able to take vacations, and provide for your own kids to go to college - there are many paths that will get you there. Elite colleges are only one of them.
I would take Duke, but it’s a bet on yourself. If you do well then you’ll be able to land a great job (in CS or another field). Working part-time on-campus some and then getting good internships will help lower the debt burden before you graduate. The short-term opportunities and long-term network make this a chance worth taking.
@NashSaddle, if it’s a chance worth taking, why don’t you take on half of the OP risk and loan him $40k interest free for 20 years. And what if he doesn’t do as well as he thought? You’ll forgive the loan? Sorry, advising somebody who has no money to take out $80,000 in loans when he has other affordable options, is irresponsible.
OP can’t take $20,000 in loans unless their parents agree to take those on and they’ve already said they can’t/ won’t get involved.
So the whole discussion about getting in debt is moot.
However @Roycliffe you MUST immediately contact Duke financial aid. Indicate you need a review of your financial aid due to your father’s medical costs for $… (send photocopy of medical bills), which led to a time without work (send proof) and finally resuming work but with much lower hours (send w2’s for 2017-2018). As a result, based on this new information, you request their professional judgement. (You must use these terms). Specify that Duke is your first choice and you will attend if affordable. (Also important).
In the meanwhile talk with your parents: can they send the AOTC refund which they’ll receive to help them pay for your college… To help you pay for college? Also, you’ll be eating there, not at home so it’ll be money they won’t spend at home for your food, can they contribute toward the cost of food at Duke ?
Do you have a job? Can you increase your hours now and move to full time after graduation?
@Nomorelurker You seem to have entirely skipped over half my post. Also your whole loan tangent is just irrelevant. I clearly specified that I would do it but that it’s a bet on yourself. If his parents are completely unwilling to assist with the debt then it’s not an option anyway. I know lots of people who took out debt then were able to pay it back after doing well, but if you don’t perform then yes it’s a massive burden.
My advice comes from the fact that I could have taken a free ride to a few different schools but instead chose a more costly route. From it I gained several opportunities that simply aren’t available unless you attend an elite school. Maybe only ~15-20% of kids from the very top schools really get the ultra lucrative jobs, but for someone that’s capable to turn down the chance is a big missed opportunity that I personally would hate to have missed. Gambling on yourself is a very large risk. UF provides many great opportunities and you can still have a wonderfully successful life.
I think it’s worth noting there is another thread where posters are arguing for UF in that it’s an elite school, thereby proving prestigiosity is in the eye of the beholder.
I would carefully read and consider the response from @MYOS1634 #54.
UF is a great school, no doubt. Nothing to be ashamed of there, and you can do much with a UF diploma if you work hard and take advantage of what UF has to offer.
OTOH, Duke is a very special opportunity that should be explored from every angle to see if you can make it happen, imho.
At the end of the day, though, I would not go in the hole $80K or ask my parents to do so for an undergraduate degree (knowing what I know now - when I was your age I would have begged and cajoled and wheedled my parents endlessly).
This is a tough situation - hoping it works out for you!
I agree, but the parents wouldn’t need to go into debt. They have some money, they just don’t want to contribute to their child’s education. Totally different situation. I honestly don’t think the OP has a choice as you can’t take out that much in loans without parents co-signing and considering they don’t want to contribute to the college education at all, I don’t see why they’d want to co-sign loans.
@NashSaddle, glad the gamble worked out for you. Sometimes it does and sometimes it does not. Easier to gamble if one already has some funds to begin with, or have family members who can afford to co-sign, loan, or provide the assistance, as you said. That does not appear to be the case with the OP, as already noted. I suspect there are others who have a decision to make prior to May 1, who have the funds to pay $80,000 or more to attend an “elite” school and must weigh whether it is worthwhile when considering significant merit awards at slightly lower ranked schools, or even full rides or close to full rides at public universities. It seems to be a theme on CC whether the “elite” school is really worth the extra cost. No doubt there are many sides to this dilemma. Ultimately it is a personal decision that strangers on a forum cannot accurately advise on without having all the facts. Nevertheless some general input from people on on a forum may be helpful, at least we can hope.