Is a near full-ride to Michigan OOS worth passing over Stanford and Yale?

Parents Forum
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<p>My point is not that there is a problem with CA kids (I have two of them myself)--but OP made the statement that he liked Stanford for its diversity. The school may have racial diversity but is not as geographically diverse as Yale. I would estimate that Stanford has about 40% California residents. Add onto that all the kids from the West...I'm not convinced that Stanford is as diverse as OP would like to think.</p>

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<p>Why not get a student loan (off Dad?) for yourself to pay off, for the difference in cost? Dad pays the Michigan equivalent. You pay the Stanford premium. Summer work, and other jobs on your part to build up your experience and value.
Just a thought. Apologies if already mentioned/embedded here somewhere. :)</p>

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<p>Don't know if this will help the OP. My co-worker's daughter was awarded the Morehead scholarship at UNC and a a few offers from the Ivy. She passed the Ivy and attended UNC. When applying for medical schools, she again passed up the Ivy offers and accept UNC medical school on a full scholarship. And this is from a family who knows the stuff. Her older brother graduated from Ivy undergrad and med school. My CEO's D also passed up the Ivy and took one of the big name state scholarships, the UVA Jefferson. This guy could pay for his D's education in about a week or two worth of working!</p>

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<p>This is a tough one. It really is. There are a lot of things to consider.</p>

<p>It might be easier to get top grades at Michigan. Having top grades is essential to being admitted to a top law school. The top law schools like diversity in their incoming classes and will only take X from each school. If your grades don't cut it, you will wind up at a second-tier school. That weighs in favor of Michigan. I would say that if you are very sure you want law school, then go to Michigan. </p>

<p>If you are anything less than 100% sure, then go to Stanford. Life is short. Be happy. Go to the school that will make you happy. Right now, that sounds like Stanford.</p>

<p>Regarding the debt question, I went to a top law school. I borrowed a bunch of money (back 20 years ago) for law school (little debt from undergrad). To give you some perspective, when I graduated, I owed more than my first annual salary. I owed about as much as what a new attorney makes at a top firm. You know what? I paid it all off in about 8 years by living frugally. It hurt at the time (with my friends having nicer cars and buying homes), but I have no regrets.</p>

<p>So even if you later decide you want law school but already spent a lot on undergrad, you'll find a way to make it work. Having borrowed heavily will make it more difficult to pursue certain law careers (you may have to work at a big old nasty law firm for a while), but when you are finished you would have, say, a Stanford undergrad degree and a Harvard law degree. Which ain't half bad.</p>

<p>Go with your heart and go to Stanford. Forget about Yale for undergrad. Be happy. Being happy is the most important thing.</p>

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<p>Ditto on <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061796678-post40.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061796678-post40.html&lt;/a> (#40).</p>

<p>The OP needs to visit both schools to make certain he makes the right decision.</p>

<p>IMO, it's hard to pass up the near-full ride from an excellent school when the economy now is so shaky.</p>

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<p>im a future MSU student, but I have the stats for the ivy i applied to (i have reason to believe i'll be accepted, but can never be sure...) and even though the blue and corn sucks (sorry, hazard of being rivals), i would pick the merit aid plus fun "college experience" and football/basketball/hockey games and parties-you can go somewhere "more prestigious" later! plus, who wants to deal w/ a ton of loans?</p>

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<p>Thanks all for the input so far! I am going on my visits coming up in April and March which should aid in my decision.</p>

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<p>Best of luck to you Tyler09 whatever you decide. :-)</p>

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<p>Just a quick detail I'm not sure came through clear. Regardless of the choice I make (provided I was even able to make the choice) I would not graduate with any debt. Should I choose Stanford or Yale, my parents would pay any loans I had to take, but they may be unable to help pay for grad school. If money ended up being tight I would have to work for my own spending money in college. </p>

<p>For that I am lucky and thankful, but it would put a strain on my families finances for a little while.</p>

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If money ended up being tight I would have to work for my own spending money in college.

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Why not plan to do that anyway - especially if you can find a decent on-campus job. As stated on another thread, these jobs can add another dimension to the campus experience, let you interact with profs and staff on a different level, and put some spending money in your pocket to take care of extracurriculars or to help with the costs. These jobs are typically flexible on schedule and allow one to work a limited number of hours per week. A friend of my D's had a job at Stanford in a bio lab keeping track of the habits or something of fish as part of a paid research job. Stanford even has a 'campus minimum wage' that's higher than the normal one.</p>

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<p>Tyler09, I know you started this thread because you were looking for guidance. But I want to say thank you for starting it. I have read many permutations of various CC members' situations, but none are as spot-on relevant as is yours. The difference is that I am the parent, not the student. S may have to choose between school-of-dreams (like Stanford, no $FA or $MA help) or excellent-school-on-merit-scholarship-that-many-other-CCers-would-be-thrilled-to-attend. Like yours, S's choice is graduate debt-free from school-of-dreams but no $ left for grad school vs. graduate from excellent merit aid school with money for grad school. </p>

<p>I respect that many CCers would be ecstatic to have this choice to make, and therefore some may have no sympathy. I appreciate your putting your dilemma out there - and also the many sincere posts in response. The fact that the advice is all over the map is proof that it's not an easy call. </p>

<p>Please keep us posted as to what you decide to do, I for one will be very interested.</p>

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<p>My daughter received the scholarship program the OP must have been offered - there are not that many of them, and is almost finished at UM, choosing to attend there over schools in a similar vein as the others to which the OP was accepted. </p>

<p>Money was not an issue - although I was glad not to spend it with a younger sibling on the way to college. </p>

<p>From my perspective, UM is a great choice. Be prepared to be independent and mature if you go. The best part of the school is its vast resources; that is also a burden because one has to navigate through the school to get them. </p>

<p>And I agree with the financial aspect as a practicing lawyer now. I went to college on a full athletic scholarship, and then worked three years as a trader, saving up money so law school could be paid for without debt and I could also buy a condo - did all those things. But that was in the 80's - law school was cheaper (even the private highly ranked one I went to) and it is absurd to think a Tier One law school (even Va and Mich are expensive in state) could be paid for by most without incurring debt today, unless, of course, one has wealthy parents. And nothing is worse in the law than being stuck in a job one hates merely because of a crushing debt load. Starting thinking about being free from debt now.</p>

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<p>Second ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad's comment above. You really should do some work whatever road you take. The sooner you learn about money and its need for hard work the better! Enjoy school and college days while they last, but they don't last forever! :)</p>

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<p>Congratulations on having this 'problem'! Seriously, you are in such a fortunate position and it speaks volumes about you.</p>

<p>I just wanted to chime in with a few thoughts. I have read potentially conflicting and mixed terms in your posts and it might help you to sort them out. </p>

<p>You mention best fit. Have you visited the schools? Why are Stanford AND Yale both better fits, as such different schools? How do they really FIT with you? (you needn't answer here I just pose these as things for you to think about).</p>

<p>You mention "dream school". Dream in what way? And how well do you actually know these places, and the reality of the environment? Yes they are highly ranked and talked about much on CC but really most students are unable to really know the environments of these places to know if 'dream' matches 'reality' (and if many other realities could do as well or better of a job with fulfilling the 'dream'). Don't confuse hype, reputation, brochures, and imaginings with reality or with your dream fulfillment. </p>

<p>You mention "shapes you as a person". I assure you there is a wayyyy overrated difference between schools as discussed from afar, than there are real differences between them. You can have a fabulous life altering amazing character building experience at all of these places. You are not going to turn into a lesser person because you attended UM and may actually grow more there (it depends).</p>

<p>I think this real issue is about prestige vs. practicality. Just keep it clear: you can rationalize its better, argue its a dream, convince yourself its a fit issue but when it comes down to it, its having the better brand name. As you say it aligns with your parents, and is important to your extended family. There is nothing wrong with this! Just keep it clear with you and your family what you are purchasing. It is NOT necessarily a better education or even a better experience. It's a name, a thing to tell people, a window sticker for the car, a sense of pride, or whatever other non-tangible things you want it to be. It may also be great for networking and opening doors, especially with your first job. But that is the main thing you are purchasing for the extra cost. </p>

<p>Is the name worth it? No one can answer that but you and your family. I can see for some it really is wonderful for them and their family, and they get such great psychological joy from it. Maybe their whole life they do (though I always think its sad when middle age people still feel a need to mention their Ivy undergrad, as if that was their biggest or only accomplishment in life).</p>

<p>Just make sure you are very clear about what the real differences are that you are buying for the cost differential.</p>

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<p>
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My mom wants me to go to Stanford.

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<p>Tyler, your post reminds me of the (very) famous debate about the choices offered to EvilRobot. Although his financial situation and his collegial choices were quite different from yours, he ended up picking Vanderbilt's full ride+ and not attending Yale. In a way, the daughter of Curmudgeon also picked an amazing scholarship at Rhodes College and say no-thanks to Yale. Is there a pattern? Not quite, but I would also offer my opinion that Yale is not really in the balance here. </p>

<p>If an *opinion *is what you seek, I would go straight at it: pick Stanford and never, ever look back. Every line you write, every letter in your posts screams how much you like Stanford. Your mother wants you to go to Stanford. And, as it happens in many cases, Mommies know best! Michigan is and will be a frigid place for your body and probably for your heart as well. I believe you'll spent a lifetime regretting this choice.</p>

<p>On a more serious note, please consider the REAL dangers of relying on scholarships when trying to ascertain the true differences. Unless I am mistaken, the amount and renewability of a merit scholarship is rarely guaranteed, and the situation of being an OOS at a large state university presents its set of challenges. </p>

<p>Further when measuring the true cost of your education, please realize that Stanford will offer you amazing opportunities and real possibilities to contribute to your parents' payments. Lastly, do not let the costs of graduate school cloud your judgment ... today. Chances are that you will consider something very different in 4 or 5 years from now. </p>

<p>Welcome to the Farm, Tyler!</p>

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<p>I would say that you should find out your own financial situation and your parent's ability to pay. If they don't have much trouble paying and are willing to do so, I'd go to Stanford or Yale.</p>

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<p>how did you get into all 3 so early when Yale only has restrictive early action?</p>

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<p>Tyler, I hope you understand that I can't read all of the posts everyone's given, so this may be redundant. The questions I'd ask myself:</p>

<p>A) What do you like to do, and what do you want to accomplish in college? Is there a department you particularly want to take advantage of...where Stanford or Yale is stronger? Entirely possible. If this is especially so, that's a very good reason to choose one of these two. A student can do great at any of these 3 schools, but it's legitimate to choose a more expensive school if it offers something great...because as much as possible, you want a school that can help you achieve your goals, rather than asking you to find means to achieve them yourself. So, for instance, say you adore the course offerings at Yale for your major like no other...that's a great reason to go.</p>

<p>B) Do you really care about environment? Do you want ultimate freedom to do whatever you want [which public schools tend to offer...e.g. they'll be super lax with giving you AP credits, etc], or is a sense of community more important [I imagine private schools offer that more]. If you just want a good school + good resources, I'd say you might seriously consider the Michigan deal. It's mainly a question of whether you have particularly refined desires for how your school ought to be. If so, clearly the two private schools win. And yes, in that case it's worth paying the money...how much you like your school can really make a difference when it comes to how much energy you have.</p>

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Is there a department you particularly want to take advantage of...where Stanford or Yale is stronger? Entirely possible.

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The OP is a Ross pre-admit. I presume he would do something similar at Stanford or Yale.</p>

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<p>I would go to Michigan - I did go to Michigan - picked it over Stanford and paid out-of-state tuition with a small national merit scholarship - 25 years ago. Michigan is a great school - especially Ross. I don't really think you'd be giving up anything by picking Michigan - there are so many opportunities to excel and the students are intelligent and highly motivated.
My main reason for not choosing Stanford was that the students seemed very elitist to me when I went to visit - it was a very personal opinion based on the students who gave the tours but enough for me to not want to go there at age 18.<br>
Hopefully it will be clear to you when you visit - a very individual choice - my oldest chose an Ivy over MI and it was the best choice for her.</p>