<p>Let’s make it EXTREMELY CLEAR that we’re talking about two different assumptions and causation vs correlation.</p>
<p>It should NEVER be assumed that going to an Ivy will CAUSE you to get a higher MCAT score, all things being equal.</p>
<p>It is 100% reasonable to assume that the average student at an Ivy will get a higher MCAT score than an average student at a non-selective state school…due to the fact that the average Ivy Leaguer is more likely to be more intelligent/a better test taker than the average State Schooler. However, I promise you that EVERY COLLEGE IN THE COUNTRY has students who are every bit the genius of the absolutely most spectacular Ivy student.</p>
<p>I have long, long, long argued this point (which sometimes seems like screaming in wind) that the reason why Ivy Leagues have higher rates of placement into med school is because the talents/skills/motivation that get you into the Ivy League in the first place are the same talents/skills/motivation that get you in to med school. That being the case, the students who are able to garner acceptances into these schools, but for what ever reason choose to go elsewhere, are likely at a minimal disadvantage when it comes getting into med school on down the road - even if they go to Podunk U or PigsKnuckle College.</p>
<p>Actually, this is not an unlikely scenario, especially with state school kids. It seems that far more of the high GPA/low MCAT applicants are from state schools while more of the low GPA/high MCAT applicants are from top privates.</p>
<p>I commented NOTHING of the sort. What I posted was that Harvard et al is full really good test takers because Harvard et al purposely chooses really good tests takers. (Unless you bring a really big hook, you gotta be a good test taker to get accepted by Harvard. Doh!) So if you have the stats and are accepted to HYP, you are by definition a good test taker. One can take those great HS stats somewhere else, and still do well on mcat/lsat. Indeed, that is why merit scholarships (and 7/8 year programs) and exist. The colleges are buying high stat students. </p>
<p>That does not mean the The Ohio State University does not have some really good test takers, it just has a lot less as a %, in other words, on average, than Harvard. A better example is Cal Berkeley which, due to its larger size, has MORE top test takers than Harvard – in total number, but not in %. Thus, the top ~quartile at Cal could achieve similar grad school test scores as the average H student. Of course, the bottom quartile at TOSU or Cal… :)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That’s true for a lot of kids; not all high stat kids want to to attend H. And the point is?</p>
<p>The numbers are readily available bdm. From the respective college’s Common Data Sets…</p>
<p>Cal’s Frosh class has ~4200 students. It’s 75% (or top quartile) has combined SAT scores of 2230. Thus, ~1050 Cal Frosh have a 2230 or above.</p>
<p>Harvard’s class is ~1600. H’s bottom quartile is <2100. Thus, 1200 of H’s class have a 2100+. </p>
<p>And yes, I recognize that individual SAT scores are not mathematically additive, but the numbers are close enough for government work. :)</p>
<p>~1050 Cal Frosh have a 2230+ (top quartile)
~1200 at H have a 2100+ (top three quartiles)</p>
<p>Depending on how you interpolate, we can speculate where the 150 extras will fall.</p>
<p>And since I mentioned TOSU earlier…top quartile is ~1990. With 6600 Frosh, that means 1650 students beat 2000. Of course, TOSU is primarily an ACT school (84% submitting); it’s top quartile is a 30, which is below H’s bottom quartile of 31. </p>
<p>btw: Cal’s ACT 75th is a 33, which is approx. H’s mean. (H reports 25% submit ACT; for Cal its 36%).</p>
<p>btw: And don’t forget that UC does not superscore the SAT.</p>
<p>btw: And don’t forget that UC does not superscore the SAT.</p>
<p>Yes, it’s true that UC’s do not superscore for admittance. However, I’ve often wondered if schools that don’t superscore for admittance will STILL report the highest section for stat purposes.</p>
<p>*I have long, long, long argued this point (which sometimes seems like screaming in wind) that the reason why Ivy Leagues have higher rates of placement into med school is because the talents/skills/motivation that get you into the Ivy League in the first place are the same talents/skills/motivation that get you in to med school. *</p>
<p>Very true…which is why it’s silly when kids say that they want to get into an ivy or elite to improve their med school chances…as if plunking a “good but not top stat kid” into an elite will magically result in higher MCAT and med school acceptance.</p>
<p>I do not know much about stats for Ivy’s. I never use any stats in decision making, since they can lead to incorrect assumptions. I am for being self-relient, it has worked for our family. My arguments were based on these points:
D. was #1 in her private HS. Every single #1 from her HS before and after her went to either Harvard or Yale. She was advised to do so, but did not care and still does not care. However, going to private highly ranked Med. School.
We got lists of Second Look participants that D. went to for making final decision about her Med. School. Most of them were from Ivy’s. So, D. was fitting just fine in this crowd.
Other pre-meds from her non-flagship state school got accepted to great top Med. Schools. Very impressive!</p>
<p>As I have mentioned, everybody has different opinions in this matter based on their own personal experiences. I do not think anybody is correct or incorrect. I just would like to point out not to assume certain things will happen because you went to certain place. They will happen if you personally make them happen by working hard (apparently not applicable to geniuses, who have their own procedures for getting straight A’s and high MCAT scores)</p>
<p>Mom2collegekids
As a proof of my dislike of stats, this has no relation to Medical School applicants pool. What are stats at each school among pre-meds who are applying to Med. School?</p>
<p>Oh, I wasn’t implying anything specifically about pre-meds.</p>
<p>I was just showing that every campus has smart kids on it…kids smart enough to do well on the MCAT should they take it.</p>
<p>However, I think it might be safe to assume that the pre-meds in state schools (like OSU) that make it all the way to the med school app process are probably mostly those in the below high categories. </p>
<p>•SAT critical reading scores over 700 12%
•SAT math scores over 700 23%
•SAT writing scores over 700 8%
•ACT scores over 30 27% </p>
<p>If 27% have ACTs above 30, then that’s a lot of kids who have the test-taking potential to do well enough on the MCAT to get accepted to med school provided that they have the GPA, ECs, and other req’ts. </p>
<p>I like to see these kinds of stats because many times people dismiss state schools simply because they look at the middle quartile ranges which include many “average stat kids.” So, they conclude that their smart child’s classes will be filled will “average kids” and the classes will be “dumbed down.” Potential pre-meds really worry about that. What they don’t realize is that those high stats kids are largely in about 6-10 majors…they aren’t spread equally amongst all majors. They are largely found in Eng’g, math, bio, chem, physics and a few other majors. And, certainly that means that the “real bio, chem, physics” classes that are pre-reqs will have other smart kids in them because their majors or pre-med status require those classes as well.</p>
<p>did you ever consider that your private GC’s pushing of H was more about them than about your D? Their tuition and ability to attract future students is based on the high school’s attractiveness to get students into HYP et al…by not even applying, your D is not great marketing material for them.</p>
<p>1.) I would have guessed that Harvard has more “top test takers” (2350+ SAT, 175+ LSAT, 40+ MCAT) than Berkeley, even in absolute numbers. But not clear to me that this is true. </p>
<p>(25% of Harvard has a 2370, so at LEAST 400 kids per class by that measure.)</p>
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</p>
<p>2.) From #25, the top quartile at Cal seems to have 2230. I wonder what Harvard’s average/median is? If you interpolate their 25th and 75th, you get roughly 2230 – but I don’t think that’s the right way to do it.</p>
<p>It seems as though the reason that students at top 20 schools do better on the MCATS is that they are forced to compete in their science classes for a good grade.</p>
<p>I have friends who are receiving extremely easy A’s in chem or bio from state school and do not seem to learn what they need to do amazing on the MCAT while I have had to work more than imaginable for even that C+ in orgo. </p>
<p>Classes at Vanderbilt create an obvious separation between students:</p>
<p>A-B: Students who were extremely smart in high school and did not need to put much effort into a getting a high gpa, but changed their attitude when coming to college and started to put forth effort.</p>
<p>C: Students who were geniuses in high school but have not made the switch into college level courses and do not put in enough work. Also, overachievers who sacrifice social life and extracurriculars to study for class.</p>
<p>D-F: These were the obvious overachievers in high school. They only got into Vanderbilt because they put in hours each and every day throughout their high school career trying to get a high gpa. However, when placed at the level of Vanderbilt students, putting in more work sometimes just does not fair well. </p>
<p>Students in state schools do not have as competitive of an atmosphere as ivy’s or other top schools that force them to study these subjects.</p>
<p>As for my original concern, I think I have decided to stick with Vanderbilt for now and work my way up to that 3.6. I just hope my background and extracurriculars will make up for a gpa on the lower end.</p>
<p>"did you ever consider that your private GC’s pushing of H was more about them than about your D? "
-Exactly. The same goes for UG pre-med advisor. D. knew it, I knew it. But as I have mentioned all other ranked #1 and few spots below went to Ivy’s in previous years and after my D. graduated.
Actually D. has been a great marketin material, since she was accepted to program that admitted only 10 freshmen (although at state school) and recieved numerous Merit awards that covered her entire tuition and more. I bet she contiues to be a great marketing tool because of all incredible awards that we did not even knew existed, that she got before UG graduation actually AFTER being accepted to Med. Schools. I just wish that they came earlier. </p>
<p>* From #25, the top quartile at Cal seems to have 2230. I wonder what Harvard’s average/median is? If you interpolate their 25th and 75th, you get roughly 2230 – but I don’t think that’s the right way to do it. *</p>
<p>We still don’t know if Cal reports superscored SATs like ivies/elites do. We know that UCs don’t superscore for admission, but we don’t know what they do for reporting purposes. That could change numbers significantly because the same student who might have a 2250 in a single sitting could have a 2350+ superscored across 3 sittings.</p>
<p>*It seems as though the reason that students at top 20 schools do better on the MCATS is that they are forced to compete in their science classes for a good grade.</p>
<p>I have friends who are receiving extremely easy A’s in chem or bio from state school and do not seem to learn what they need to do amazing on the MCAT while I have had to work more than imaginable for even that C+ in orgo.
*</p>
<p>I think that may depend on the state school and the quality of their science courses and profs. My son worked his tail off for his A’s in Orgo I and II at his state school. His profs have been excellent. And, do you know for sure that these friends are taking the “real” bio, chem, orgo…and not the “easier” versions for non-majors and nursing students?? That would make a huge difference, too.</p>
<p>That said, I know that you’re at Vandy…and I have a pre-med nephew there. And, he says that it makes a huge difference as to who you get as a prof there for pre-reqs.</p>
<p>“I have friends who are receiving extremely easy A’s in chem or bio from state school and do not seem to learn what they need to do amazing on the MCAT”</p>
<p>-As an example of opposite, D. (state school), did not need to review Chem. for MCAT, she knew material. Not because she was genius, but becasue she had an awesome HS teacher who made them work very hard in their regular Chem (no AP was offered), so college Chem was a breeze that resulted in position of Chem Prof assistant.<br>
Cannot say the same about Bio. The hardest classes in D’s UG were Bio, but she loved them. Anyway, she had to work very hard to get her A’s.<br>
However, from her comments, PS and BS sections on MCAT were not the hardest ones, it is always Verbal in her case, no matter what test she takes. She simply does not like to read.</p>
<p>I am not sure about very general nature of this discussion. Kids are different with different ability/background in each class, UGs are different. D’s backgound allowed her to have easier times in Chem/Math/English/Foreign language (again, if you have 3 languages, the next one is easier, no genius), jsut because she happened to put huge efforts at earlier age, while classes like Orgo, Physics, Bio, History (did not need any Hist. at college, thank goodness) reguired tons of effort to get A’s. The point is everything is doable if one is prepared to work hard.<br>
Apparently, there are kids who do not study for anything and still getting their starigh As and high scores, I have never met one though.</p>
<p>Lots of stats being stated here, which really are not that critical to the OP. Stats are about group behavior, you are an individual, you might be the only one at a certain data point. We saw a Berkeley admitted students chart a few months ago and my DD was the only one admitted at her data point on the chart, which would have been discouraging had we seen it ahead of time!</p>
<p>Okay, OP, so you can get a 3.5-3.7 from Vandy. Do it. Do the best you can on the MCAT, too.</p>
<p>But I think one thing that will help you stand out in the pile of apps is the ECs and LORs. If Vandy is allowing you access to wonderful ECs and if you can connect with your profs, then you will be ahead of many other applicants. Of course you still need to craft an excellent application!</p>
<p>My DD had a GPA in the area of 3.6-3.7 and only 29 MCAT (LD affects test taking hence the disparity) and she got into her #1 choice top 10 med school. She and I are certain it was due to the LORs and the ECs. She met the minimum standard in GPA and her MCAT was acceptable to 10 schools which offered interviews. Like you, her UG school was respectable, Berkeley. The GPA/MCAT/school rep are merely hurdles to get over, they don’t get you in. It is who you are and what you did with your university experience that will get you in. Don’t stress the numbers. Do your best, try to eke out every 0.1 extra on your GPA, certainly, but the factor that will make or break your med school app is your ECs and LORs so pursue those personal relationships with profs and pursue ECs that interest you and are interesting and don’t stress the GPAs of kids at state schools, that has nothing to do with you.</p>
<p>*We saw a Berkeley admitted students chart a few months ago and my DD was the only one admitted at her data point on the chart, which would have been discouraging had we seen it ahead of time!</p>
<p>*</p>
<p>I think that stat is very unreliable since it involves some amount of student self-reporting and may not include those who applied after a glide year, right?</p>
<p>However, the SAT/ACT stats above are based on stats that every student must submit in order to get accepted to the school. </p>
<p>That said, of course there can be more to an applicant than just stats, but as we’ve been told, some schools have these early “non human” screening systems that would eliminate many students before a person could ever read about an EC or LOR.</p>
<p>Not only have I heard that on this forum, but I came across this…</p>
<p>*Calculating grades is an important part of your medical school application and a lot of medical schools use computers to screen medical school applicants in two areas: </p>
<p>•MCAT score
•GPA.</p>
<p>Why use computers? </p>
<p>Medical schools receive too many applications then they can review so they need an efficient way to automatically weed out unqualified students by focusing on your numbers. </p>
<p>If you didn’t know each school assigns a particular weight to your MCAT and grade point average and if you fall below the medical school’s cutoff level your AMCAS application will not be read by a human on the medical school admissions committee.
*</p>
<p>The above wasn’t written by an official authority, but since that explanation has been offered many times, I tend to believe that it is true.</p>
<p>Which schools did your D interview? And which did she choose?</p>