<p>Wondering if anyone can help me. To start off I'm a county college student in nj I'll be graduating with a LA degree in History and hope to transfer to either Emory or Vanderbilt and be a Pre Med. I'll most likely be graduating from CC with around a 3.60 and will be a member of PTK. As for ECs I'm going to become an EMT. Can anyone tell me what my chances are?</p>
<p>What pre-med classes have you finished and (relatedly) how sure are you on pre-med? From what I understand, the undergraduate school you attend (by itself) doesn’t not have a significant effect on medical school admissions. You may not want to transfer to Emory or Vanderbilt only to 1. Incur a lot of debt or pay almost full price and then go medical school, which is expensive with little, if any, financial aid or 2. To find your GPA drop (particularly as you work to finish a major, general education, and pre-med requirements in two years–if you haven’t already make a significant dent in pre-med requirements), making your path to medical school far more difficult.</p>
<p>Emory and Vanderbilt are also pretty different schools. I’m not trying to dissuade you; just trying to make sure you’ve carefully considered your goals and how your baccalaureate institution will fit within that.</p>
<p>Also, note that one is rumored to be less “transfer friendly” (don’t know if it’s true, but it’s apparently been discussed). But seriously, don’t transfer for the sake of “being pre-med at a prestigious institutions”. You need to make sure that you actually want to be at either one of these places. Do you actually value having a more challenging science curriculum or will you get to said prestigious school and choose easy courses and instructors (in which case, your preparation will be no different from your community college and you may still get a lower GPA)? I mean, seriously think about what you intend to get out of these schools other than a prestigious degree. It’s not actually beneficial to be at either unless you actually like science and want to get the better and best of science instruction and research at these institutions. Being a generic “I’ll just do bare minimum academically and study for the MCAT” pre-med at either will likely give you little to no boost and lower grades. Worse, it’ll waste your money. However, I think both schools will be excellent if you want to continue studying history while taking pre-med requirements (Emory’s history program has tons of opps. for you and clearly more money than normal to throw around at undergraduates in the program). If you end up going through with this, make sure you get your money’s worth and choose the best instructors for both pre-med requirements and your major, even if the better instructors are more rigorous.</p>
<p>First off thanks for the replies. To answer aigiqinf I’ll only have calc 1 and gen chem 1 out of the way because I want to take as many pre med classes as I can at a 4 year school. Med schools won’t like two see the majority of pre med course work at a CC. Also. I’m definitely sure I want to do pre med an in no way am I going to proceed by doing the bare minimum. The truth is I really do value these 2 schools and would love to receive a degree from either one of them. I know they say the prestige of the university doesn’t matter but I would personally rather work extremely hard and get a 3.5 from emory than a 3.75 from a nationally unrecognized school in jersey. I feel going to one of these schools would definitely prepare me better for med school and that is ultimately what I want. But back to the first question, do you think I have a good chance at getting in with my credentials</p>
<p>The answer is yes for admissions, both schools like transfers and your GPA is solid. Again, they “can” prepare you better. Many people slip through the cracks and don’t become prepared better. Also, note that as aig said, the two are very different schools. I will say this. If you come to Emory, I know you’ll get to receive organic chemistry instruction at quality bar none (very rigorous and very good. I imagine Vanderbilt is great in biology, but if you come here, you may end up taking up chemistry after taking one of these two. In addition, our general biology classes are relatively small and taught well), and I know some biology and chemistry professors and courses that will give you very good training of the mind and end up preparing you very well for medical school or a future in science. For some reason, Emory has done a decent job at attracting science professors that do more than normal science professors (they don’t just lecture. Several use the socratic method heavily, some do problem and case based learning and test on more than just content). From what I’ve found in course archives, both Emory and Vanderbilt have rigorous courses that many pre-meds take, but they just appear to be a different kind of rigor.</p>
<p>Better or more rigorous Vanderbilt instructors of science appear to hit students with lots of content and then ask you to kind of think critically about it. Emory’s better instructors will deliver some content, but mainly get you to focus on problem solving at a very high level (the two organic chemistry professors I referred to for example, hit you with problems that most won’t see until graduate school). The best science instructors may give exams that ask you to present your knowledge of the material by analyzing data sets (like organismal form and function with Beck), so will not “directly” ask you to elicit the knowledge of the material. The cell biology and epigenetics professor will give exams that literally just have several research abstracts as prompts for you to use to develop a model and experimentally test a phenomenon (thus requiring much more creativity than normal science courses as questions are almost completely open ended in terms of how you approach them). However, these classes are doable because the teachers develop the skills to think about exam prompts in class by guiding learning through problem sets or discussion instead of lecturing. From what I saw from syllabi at Vanderbilt and any exams I managed to get a hold of, it’s of high quality and rigor, but more traditional (which you and most others may prefer. Research shows that pre-meds and natural sciences don’t necessarily receive active learning well.). Both have excellent research opportunities, so you’ll be okay at both and both will be rigorous if you take the best courses you can, so you honestly can’t go wrong, just be aware that the academic and social atmosphere are different.</p>
<p>Well thanks man I really appreciate the response. All in all do you think students who go into Emory with the wrong mindset (ie: doing the bare minimum) really hurt the chances at matriculating into a med school. Opposed to going to an easier university and performing better. I’m not saying I’m going to do that I intend to be as dedicated as possible but do you think overall going to Emory can actually hurt your chances of getting accepted to med school</p>
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<p>My point is that a 3.1 from one and a 3.5 from the other might mean the difference between going to medical school and not going to medical school. Here’s some data: <a href=“http://career.emory.edu/images/parents_images_pdf/2013_med_mcat_gpa.pdf[/url]”>http://career.emory.edu/images/parents_images_pdf/2013_med_mcat_gpa.pdf</a>.</p>
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<p>Emory is a very good school with a lot of resources. If you’re going to go to medical school, you need to come here and do quite well–not just okay. Same with Vanderbilt. It’s possible that you could come to Emory or Vanderbilt and not get into medical school because of course performance–while you may have gotten in had you gone elsewhere.</p>
<p>I don’t mean to scare you in anyway, just that a lot of applicants seem to think that attending a top school is a panacea. What I would emphasize is that it’s not merely a question of how hard you’ll work, but of your preparation. And only you know enough to make that decision.</p>
<p>One way to put it is that top schools are structured to take people with a lot of privileges, resources, and talents and push them to be better-- not to take people who are just fairly good students and take them to the next level.</p>
<p>Chilltown: I don’t know if its that, it would be simple to say that. I just think many pre-meds at Emory end up suffering from “pre-med” syndrome after freshman or sophomore year. I believe it happens at many elite schools. Many, for example, will start off by taking the high quality instructors (which are also more rigorous) but with a level of overconfidence (maybe because they received a 4 or 5 on AP and decided to forfeit the credit for “review” purposes) and then score B or C both semesters. After that, instead of trying to work harder next year while continuing to take quality courses and instructors, they begin to seek “damage control” measures instead, and this basically involves finding the easiest science and math courses and instructors when available. This “just give up on challenging myself after stumbling once” is not conducive to getting into very good medical schools or grad. programs, but the ease of getting higher grades will make them feel better about themselves and probably get them into somewhere. Usually the students who just keep up the hard work, improve dramatically and end up in a very good position (winning a prestigious award, scholarship, and even matriculating a very good med. school). Pre-meds at elites are probably just very prone to becoming academically weary, and it’s somewhat understandable when you consider the process and how it is described to them Studies have shown that the grading patterns in the sciences and the level of exams at many elite institutions, public or private, may be disadvantageous to many who seek like med. school for example, because sometimes the exam results hardly reflect the amount of work you put in. However, I would provide the counterargument that one isn’t supposed to be successful if they study the same way as they did in high school, mainly repetition and content intake. Difficult exams at elites (or anywhere, it’s just going to be more common at elites, because many more professors assume students can handle it) require so much more, and studying a lot is simply not enough, it’s the method and way of understanding concepts that matters most, and not memorization. </p>
<p>aig: Tied to the above indirectly. Honestly, from what I have observed, transfers tend to come in with different mindsets than whatever freshman class that very often results in better work ethic and a larger desire to take advantage of the academic experience than those who have been here for a year or 2 and are quite frankly, reverting to “hoop jumping” mode. The thing is many pre-meds are already tired of being challenged after the first year and are often just looking to maintain or pull the GPA through any means possible, whereas transfers want to do well, but seek something different because they are comparing it to what they had before coming. Usually, they welcome the additional academic challenge, whereas many in the original freshman class are actually surprised of the rigor of many of the science courses for example. And again, are certainly surprised when they discover that they are not overly special anymore and can not just make A’s by being relatively smart like in high school. Of course, the solution to this, is to simply seek courses that are most like the high school level or environment. Soft instructors that curve already high grades, ones that give extra credit for no reason, ones that give exams at a really low level, those that hardly have any work associated with them. Anything to boost their record and self-esteem. It probably is painful to realize that sometimes “being smart and working hard” is not always enough for an A in high quality courses. I feel transfer students don’t come with the entitlement mentality or the immediate idea that “insert elite school should go relatively smoothly because my SATs and EC’s said that I’m awesome!” . They have a more realistic view of what they are up against in comparison to where they were (assuming it was a school that wasn’t that selective). I mean, seriously, how many times do you hear upperclassmen pre-meds say “I wanted the challenge”? I hear this from transfer students very often.</p>
<p>Thanks for the responses you’ve both been extremely informative. I’m just not sure what would be the best move for my future. If I got in I would really really love to go to Emory but I don’t know if the better decision would be to go to a reputable state school like TCNJ or Rutgers because obviously my ultimate goal is to go to med school. I also have to realize that I’ll be taking on a heavy course load wherever I go because I’ll be taking nearly all of my pre med classes in those two years. Another question though regarding the transfer process. I couldn’t really find transfer admissions statistics for spring. Is it harder to get into emory in the spring? What are the numbers compared to fall? And do they offer more financial aid? Lastly do you think it’s a significantly more difficult transition coming in spring opposed to fall?</p>
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<p>It’s tough. The name of the school matters (or doesn’t) in different ways depending on your goal, which could always change. I’d argue, for instance, that if pre-med didn’t work out you’d be better off with a degree from Emory than from TCNJ or Rutgers, whether you’re going straight into the job market or you were aiming for a PhD. But if you do continue the pre-med path, you may be better off going to an easier, cheaper school–but it’s hard to know.</p>
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<p>Wherever you go, if you really want to go to medical school, I wouldn’t overload in order to finish pre-med requirements. I’d finish the degree and then take the remaining courses a a cheaper four-year school (presumably back home) as a nondegree student.</p>
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<p>I don’t think that Emory releases this information, except that your financial aid package should be the same regardless of what semester you enter. I don’t think the semester you enter as a transfer student will be much different–the only downside being that some science sequences are offered Fall-Spring only.</p>
<p>One advantage they could have by coming in spring is that they get to compete for fall housing…Actually, it is advantageous to come during spring because you can maybe do a summer course (physics ideally, because Bing teaches it both semesters during summer and it’s like 1/4 its size during the year. Organic and biology classes are dumbed down too much during the summer and usually have worse instructors. And even if you come in during fall, maybe try to do physics before up in Jersey before you come down). This way you can just finish the pre-med requirements junior year (organic chemistry and biology which go well together) and be able to take your MCAT during summer or very early fall semester senior year. There is no need to have a heavy courseload. Just complete your interest in history (as in these can be your 2-3 other courses along with the 2 sciences you take each semester). Senior year, you can indulge in a history honors thesis (and the rest of the course requirements) and maybe take additional chemistry courses that you think you’ll enjoy if you want. But don’t get the idea that pre-meds carry a particularly heavy load. That’s only the case because many/most are science majors. If they were not science majors, pre-med would be challenging (because classes in the pre-med core can be challenging), but not be much of a load to burden. I think you’ll get the best of both worlds if you continue your history major at Emory and continue to pursue pre-med. It will also reduce the strain that you may have if you decide to say, pick up a biology major.</p>
<p>This is great advice. And staying a history major or getting a degree in biology is something I’ve contemplated for a while now. I feel that if I stayed a history major my GPA would be better but on the other hand I feel if I majored in biology I’d have a stronger foundation going into medical school and probably a better application (even though they say it doesn’t matter what you major in, how true is that?) all I’m saying is if you look at 2 applicants that have the same exact application except for 3.60 as a history major and 3.50 as a biology major, who do you really think their going to take? It’s really just a tough decision, Emory would be a dream but I’d also have to find out how many credits would transfer coming from jersey</p>
<p>Everyone and his or her mother majors in bio or chemistry for medical schools, and medical schools just don’t really care. Major in what you can do the best in (it’s easier to stand out that way) and do well in pre-med classes. It’s also not like bio or chem are really that much more employable than history.</p>
<p>Do you think it matters whether or not you have a BA or BS in bio when applying</p>
<p>As I know, medical schools don’t require advanced level of sciences (biochemistry/chemistry/biology). That’s why they can have 7 year BA/MD. Majoring history, you need to meet core classes which medical schools ask. Consult with pre-med advisers. If you GPA is not good, you may not be in pre-med program in your college. Emory and Vandy have a good pre-med program but I’m not sure that both schools are doing a “weed-out” in their pre-med programs.</p>
<p>Don’t major in biology to get a strong background for medical school. Undergraduate training in biology is typically not geared toward those going to medical school (even if the course titles seem to suggest it). Undergraduate science education at elite schools is more geared toward critical thinking and problem solving which will help you on your MCAT or GRE subject exams, but not necessarily medical school which is primarily content based (memorization and a lower level of application). I wouldn’t relate advanced science training to preparation for medical school.</p>
<p>So do you think majoring in a non science can essentially hurt your performance on the MCAT?</p>
<p>No. If you take the best professors for the pre-med core (physics, gen. chem, organic, and biology) and prep. well, you should do fine (the preparation process will be easier that way). Plus it’s been shown that folks like English majors have an advantage (they do a little better on average). This makes sense as the MCAT is heavily reading comprehension intensive (primarily passage based) and often stereotypical science course assignments and exams de-emphasize this (as in, they don’t present you with a sizeable body of information or data to sift through and decipher before reaching some conclusion). However, the best instructors at Emory will do something like that. You should choose a biology instructor that employs case method or pbl modes of learning when possible to get exposure to long form biology problems (like what you’ll see in MCAT passages. Also best to avoid a biology teacher that does multiple choice only or pre-dominantly multiple choice. A test of your ability to think critically and on the spot is how well you are able to write your own answer without the crutch of other answers which can often be quite obviously absurd), and take organic chemistry professors that make exams that stress the skill (Soria and Weinschenk will often have problems that require significant reading before addressing the prompt). I may show you what I mean via PM whenever I get a chance. Physics will have no instructors that really stress this ability but it really isn’t necessary (people like Bing will sharpen your conceptual understanding which is important) in the case of physics as it’s a very “plug and chug” type of subject even on the MCAT. Yes the passage may confuse you at first, but if you are familiar with the topic and the relevant formulas, it will likely end up okay according to practice books I’ve seen. Biology, chemistry, and organic chemistry require much more understanding of perhaps a very new situation so it helps to have already taken instructors that get you used to this sort of situation of piecing things together until it is something vaguely familiar.</p>
<p>I didn’t read the other posts.</p>
<p>If your goal is MCAT score, it doesn’t matter specifically what you major in. The thing you almost always see in people who score well is that they majored in something that requires a high level of critical thinking (and worked hard). </p>
<p>And, in addition to majoring, they took the premed requirements.</p>
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<p>Take courses based on the professors who teach them. You’ll get a much better education that way. If a course/major has no good professors, then avoid it.</p>
<p>Thanks guys and Bernie i really appreciate your advice. If I ended up going the route you suggested (ie: transferring into spring taking physics over the summer and finish pre reqs during the full year) what do you think would be the best time for submitting applications? Also if I went in as a spring transfer then my GPA will probably be at like a 3.50 at the time of sending my application. Do you think id still get in? I doubt Emory accepts anybody under like a 3.4, what do you think?</p>