<p>I'm curious ... I have my own opinion, but I'd like to know what you guys think.</p>
<p>at my school, U of M and MSU are "the big two" among most students. thus, a lot of students have respect for MSU. the only ones that don't are the really smart kids, who use MSU as a safety only and honestly don't think it's a great school, which I think is shallow of them.</p>
<p>^ Exactly the same at my school.</p>
<p>"... a lot of students have respect for MSU. the only ones that don't are the really smart kids, who use MSU as a safety only and honestly don't think it's a great school, which I think is shallow of them."</p>
<p>Be careful because, in essence, I think you're talking more about the "really snobby" kids and not necessarily the "really smart" ones. MSU is loaded with super Mensa geniuses; they just don't get caught up in the hype of Ivy's or brand name schools. MSU carries pretty strong in practically every HS district across, even rich ones. The only place where there's less interest in MSU is in mega-preppy school University Liggett (where a few kids go to MSU) in Grosse Point, which is arguably the most 'old money' town in the state. U-M does well there, although many families even look down their noses at U-M, too, looking only for Ivies or other top privates. For some, its simply about snob appeal.</p>
<p>I know of a guy out East who's a top administrator in one of the leading University physics labs in the nation -- his son (3.94, 800M 690V), started at MSU last year in the Honors College... and loves it! (and not all bright kids go to the Honors College some prefer a more relaxed pace; less pressure) There are others like him, some even from eastern prep schools... those who know MSU, particularly faculty who went to Ivies and the like, know of the high quality of MSU, and know it is unrated.</p>
<p>So even though some may tell you the really smart kids all opt for U-M, don't believe them. It's simply not true.</p>
<p>The only Natl Merit Finalist at my high school only applied to MSU. I got into Yale, ended up at a top theater school and am in the process of transferring to State so I think its a pretty cool place, you get a lot of bang for your buck</p>
<p>As a parent of a bright but not-yet-college-age student, I've done my homework concerning Michigan State's quality. I'm also an Ivy League grad and I am telling you that the Lyman Briggs School of Science is already on my child's list and I am quite happy about that.</p>
<p>If you're interested in social science, then another residential college at MSU (like Lyman Briggs in science) is James Madison College. You don't have to be an honors college student to get the most out of this more intensive, teachers-who-care experience. Madison College grads have excellent records in applications to grad school and law school, a large percentage do study abroad (and many end up going into Peace Corps after graduation), and they get a lot of major awards like Trumans and Rhodes.</p>
<p>MSU is a very good school. But there were two very big stumbling blocks for me:
-It is just too large of a school, both in student body and campus size. I stayed there for several journalism conventions in the summer, and it was a long haul from the middle of campus to anywhere, since the school and town aren't mixed a la Ann Arbor.
-I really, really wanted to go to a school where everyone is very bright. There are a lot of super-intelligent kids at MSU, but (at least from the kids that tend to matriculate from my high school) also a significant number of partiers that have little to no intellectual curiosity. Right now I am at a LAC-esque school out East and it is the most amazing thing in the world, as you learn so much from casual conversations. Which may/may not take place in fraternity basements. From visits I've had to MSU, I don't think we'd be discussing literature over a game of pong.</p>
<p>(I also hated the general architecture of MSU so that would have pushed me over if the other things hadn't.)</p>
<p>This isn't to knock MSU at all - my mother went to college there, although I'm a diehard Wolverine in terms of my Michigan college sports loyalties. :)</p>
<p>Also, Quincy, it's Grosse Point*e*...</p>
<p>Some fair pointes, gracilisae, some not so fair. </p>
<p>I don't want to make MSU out to be something that it's not; and it's not a small, elite LAC. But, I don't think it's fair to categorize the student body as a bunch of semi-air heads, either. If you play a game of pong over in Case Hall (home of James Madison College), you'll get as politically/intellectually charged conversations as anywhere. In Mason-Abbott (home of Roial), youll get a very artsy crowd (even moreso at the planned, new residential LAC college I not in another thread, which promises to be as academically rigorous as Madison and Briggs and the Honors College, or physics or Engineering, too, for that matter. Then youve got traditionally nerdy "Briggsies", ... well, you get the picture. Overall, how can you really judge such a large school when there are so many little LAC's and tech schools, and whatever, within the whole? Is there a discernable party atmosphere at MSU? Absolutely. But the same can be said at many top, large schools, ... some private. But its counterbalanced by the large numbers of bright, cerebral kids who are turned on by the far-flung research and teaching activities of a top-notch faculty.</p>
<p>I've been on many a campus, and I'd say, for example, that aside from the Southern lilt of student speech, the intellectual/party atmosphere, balance at UNC is indistinguishable from MSU (ditto UCLA, Wisconsin, Illinois, Texas, U. Florida, or any top flagship state university) -- and, mind you, UNC's both a smaller school with higher admissions standards. U-M? You could argue it's a tad more intellectual/liberal -- U-M has more grad students and a greater liberal arts balance, but even there, it's not all that great, really. There are frat boys and drinking games and all the other things that makes goint to college at big schools fun... The ONLY big school that I've been to that has a discernibly more intellectual atmosphere is Berkeley, and a lot of that is forced intellectualism -- they're students and faculty have got a long radical/intellectual tradition to uphold.</p>
<p>As to your comments about campus, I generally disagree. I do think the modern South campus is too spread out and can scare a lot of kids. It's compensated, though, somewhat because all of the dorms on this far-flung section of campus are clustered and all have dining halls, classrooms, faculty offices and, even, some library branches right in the hall.
However, your comment about "hating" the "general architecture" is specious -- there is no general architecture at MSU. South Campus, the newer campus I mentioned, is definitely more modern, blocky and bland, with a few exceptions, like the beautiful, renowned well-landscaped Wharton Center for the Performing Arts. But obviously, you never made it North Campus -- the significant section north of the attractive Red Cedar River - because no one I've ever heard has never said anything but that portion of campus is nothing short of breathtaking: from both a landscaping and architectural standpoint, -- its cited in the book about Campus as an Art as having buildings that uniquely harmonize with the natural setting-- unless, of course, you "hate" collegiate Gothic ivy-cover halls set among spacious manicured lawns. North Campus is where most of MSU's liberal arts programs are centered (aside from Madison which is in the South Zone) -- and it's no coincidence North Campus is noted for its distinct LAC feel -- it feels like a small, walk-able LAC but is, concomitantly, spacious and peaceful. You don't have the fishbowl/beehive (see "scary") feel here like you do at so many large state schools because MSU, overall, is so decentralized (the science, practical and tech-y schools are all to the south). Yet, the nerve-centers of the entire campus lie on North Campus -- the main Library, Union, Student Services, the health clinic as well as the old Circle intramural building (there are 3 IMs for each portion of campus there are other services, like counseling centers, that also have branches on each campus area). Also, contrary to your statement, the North campus is directly across the street from downtown East Lansing, which is loaded with shops, bookstores and restaurants (and bars, too) and is geared toward pedestrians. Residents of North Campus are no more than a 5-minute walk to any of the aforementioned nerve centers or central E.L.</p>
<p>But its all in what you want. Prestigious LACs dont need Honors Colleges because, in essence, they are the equivalent to such. But MSU, despite having an excellent HC, doesnt necessarily have to put you in HC in order for you to get that stimulating conversation you desire. As mackinaw correctly points out, Madison and Briggs are NOT honors colleges, but because of their weed out reputations, slackers tend to avoid them. But these places have as alive, intellectually stimulating students as ANY LAC </p>
<p>But it doesnt stop there. Theres so much going on culturally/intellectually on MSUs campus at any one time, your head will spin. You cant possibly have enough time in a day to do it all, and study too from big name concerts sponsored by the excellent music or theatre schools, to big time lectures it should say enough, that such lectures as the (annual) Seibert Lecture, the LeFrak Forum, among several others, have national reputations. Back a few years ago shortly before his death, when renowned Harvard evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould delivered a lecture in the 600-seat Passant Theatre of the Wharton Center, there were lines out the door (and a lot of angry students at overflow locations) because of the intense interest. The renowned Clarion SciFi conference is on campus, and the 40+ year old Red Cedar Review gives undergrad creative writers a chance to publish in a highly respected national literary magazine When Chris Mathews decided to broadcast his MSNBC Hardball program (w/ Sen. McCain) from campus during the 2000 election, he/his crew was amazed not knowing MSU by the serious political/intellectual atmosphere at this, supposedly, typical rah-rah Midwestern State U. There are constant folk and arts festivals blocking off EL streets, and the annual East Lansing film festival has quickly become the biggest in Michigan. I doubt none of this would happen at a school with a mediocre intellectual atmosphere.</p>
<p>Sorry for the long-winded-ness, but I felt it necessary to thoroughly address your points.</p>
<p>"The only place where there's less interest in MSU is in mega-preppy school University Liggett (where a few kids go to MSU) in Grosse Point, which is arguably the most 'old money' town in the state. U-M does well there, although many families even look down their noses at U-M, too, looking only for Ivies or other top privates. For some, its simply about snob appeal."</p>
<p>Whoa! How do you know about ULS? That's hilarious. I didn't know it had like a reputation.</p>
<p>I go there. And it's super true. We definately look down on MSU. One of my best friends who graduated from there last year is now at Madison College at MSU and LOVES it.</p>
<p>But we send roughly 40% of our students to Michigan, and the rest go to private colleges basically.</p>
<p>How do you know about University Liggett?</p>
<p>I've spent much time in the Detroit area (I'm originally from Ohio), visited your campus but mainly Ive heard stuff from MSU admissions people who Ive worked with, and they now U.Liggett intimately, and that's what they tell me. I understand that, between UL and Cranbrook, MSU does better with Cranbrook, although both send many more kids to UM. My sense is that, although Cranbrook is bigger (w/ the arts academy attached among other things) and has more famous alumni, U. Liggett may be slightly preppy-er. I sense that may be its location. Bloomfield Hills has old money, to be sure, but Grosse Pointe has the OLDEST money, w/ the Edsel-Ford clan, among other auto baron families. And, yes, I've talked with people in the past 10 years from/who know Liggett, and they say that among SOME UL families, the Ivy League is the only thing... That they'll attend UM, it's only a mega safety if they can't get in to at least a mid-level Ivy (or Ivy-like). I have no doubt, among such individuals, MSU isn't even on the radar. Some probably have issues w/ MSU's agricultural roots, as if that's relevant to anything -- MSU's as cosmopolitan and diverse as most any university, and through it's agrarian past, has a glorious tradition of scientific scholarship... but you can't tell some people, so be it...</p>
<p>I understand that's the way some people think and it's not going to change anytime soon. I also know that there's a significant pool of students/applicants who get past that -- there are quite a few private school preppies on campus though, at MSU, the perception among some is to downplay that aspect of their background. Again, so be it.</p>
<p>Bottom line: people can be goofy w/ their perceptions and opinions. It works both ways.</p>
<p>So you're saying they like ULS? We've only sent 3 kids or something there in the last 5 years but it's good to hear that they like the school. I think ULS is really underappreciated next to Cranbrook and DCDS; the academic courseload here is way harder than Country Day and comparable if not harder than Cranbrook. We have some super smart kids.</p>
<p>No, Ren, I'm just saying Cranbrook seems to send more kids to MSU, %-wise, than does ULiggett. Plus, I didn't want to in anyway suggest UL is inferior to Cranbrook, because I don't perceive it to be; in fact, ULS is very old-line/old money; and old money doesn't support a school of that caliber that's inferior to any school. It's just my perception that Cran is a bit better known only because, probably, it's bigger and more multifaceted simply in the number of schools it runs. </p>
<p>Maybe it's just a quirky accident that some of it's alums are known on a national scale, like liberal writer/thinker Michael Kinsley, or Watergate era's Daniel Ellsberg, or Selma (sp) Blair, etc... I'm sure ULS has plenty, too, it's just that I don't know them (but do know a Cran alum who spouts the aforementioned names, constantly).</p>