Happydad grew up in Caracas, Venezuela. He only applied to the public U that had his major and was never in the news for student riots and protests. He wanted a more serious environment where it wasn’t likely he’d miss classes because of a shut-down. Not quite a match for “fit” though.
In France, some students may choose based on politics (Assas being conservative to far right*, Rennes being known for student protests with seek-long pickets). Often they choose based on what is closest to home, bit if they have a choice between 2or 3, they’ll decide based on where their friends are going to they can rent together, or on accommodations (housing) availability and costs.
*It’s so well known a recent film had this as a starting point… Minority student is admitted to Assas, professor starts on his usual racist rant, students film and post on YouTube, professor must take as a punishment to work one on one with the student and prepare her for speech/debate contest. It seemed entirely believable that such a professor would have been allowed to reach for years at Assas.
@VickiSoCal, yep that’s another thing too, which is that as their uni entrance exams are roughly equivalent to (generally) more intensive AP’s (and the top tier would require the equivalent of 5’s on AP’s here), everybody studying a subject in a top-tier school is expected to already be at what’s equivalent to sophomore level here at the start of uni (then the 3Y England degree would be 2Y of undergrad in a subject + the equivalent of a 1Y masters here in a subject while the Scotland degree is that + about a year’s worth that you could spend on other subjects).
So let’s look at two hypothetical kids, American Tucker and English Nigel.
Both like CS and is good in it but also have an interest in various social sciences. Both are bright. Both come from upper-middle-class families where paying for the equivalent of an in-state public is fine but paying for an American private with no merit money is doable but a struggle. Both want to work in Silicon Valley.
Both get shut out of the Ivy/Oxbridge/equivalent tier.
Nigel is limited to applying to 5 UK unis. Cambridge and Imperial reject him. He’s in at Edinburgh (Informatics, which is what they call CS), UCL CS, and Warwick CS. He has 3 choices. Location and living environments would be different so would be a major consideration. Maybe prestige to some extent (hairsplitting, really, but Brits concentrate on this because there is little else that differentiates). So is solely taking CS vs. taking some other classes as well. Cost won’t differ (much; Edinburgh would be an extra year). Rigor won’t differ much. There’s little flexibility for switching majors. He’s guaranteed CS (unless he fails out, but that is unlikely). They’re all publics with between 15K-23K undergrads (25K-37K students total). Not a huge difference in political leanings. Really no realistic hope of transferring to Oxbridge. All three have a typical minimum requirements of between 37-40 IB points to get in so he can be sure that he will be with intellectual peers at all 3. All three are seen as being in the tier right below Oxbridge/LSE/Imperial in the UK by lay people; all 3 are highly respected in CS (STEM for UCL) in the UK.
Tucker applied to 15 schools and got shut out at Ivies/equivalents but got in at Vassar (at full-pay), UIUC CS (in-state rate), UCLA (OOS and not for CS), Cal (OOS in Letters&Sciences), DePauw (nearly full-tuition scholarship), Mizzou (honors and full-tuition scholarship).
UIUC, UCLA, and Cal are all big publics with rigorous ranked CS programs and top students in CS. But classes would be big. All else equal, he would prefer CA but he has to qualify for CS at Cal and UCLA really is out if he’s not in for CS. Also, UIUC is easily affordable while Cal and UCLA OOS would be stretching it. He wouldn’t be able to realistically double major at UIUC. Student test scores outside engineering at UIUC also aren’t similar to tippy-tops. Cal and UCLA are obviously elite publics.
He could double major at Vassar and he likes that it is close to NYC and small classes and that they have a smart student body and is well regarded in laymen circles in the Northeast but while he is liberal, Vassar may be too leftish for his tastes. It also costs a ton.
DePauw and Mizzou would be cheapest. Neither are renown in CS or are considered close to being Ivy-equivalents or have very high student body test scores. Mizzou offers an honors college. DePauw offers small classes, the ability to easily double major, and 3-2 engineering partnerships with both Columbia and WashU (and Tucker would like the idea of a degree from a school that is seen as prestigious even outside of CS).
Compared to Nigel, Tucker has a trillion more decisions to make:
Cost
Ability to double major
Chance to transfer somewhere with more prestige.
Honors college or no
Small vs. Big
Private vs. Public
Ability to easily major in CS
Prestige in CS
Overall lay prestige
Quality of the overall student body
Quality of CS schoolmates
Amenities/resources
Political leanings
P5 sports or no
Greek-friendly or no
CS rigor
Faculty engaged heavily in research or no.
If US college admission is all about both academic fit and non-academic fit–a holistic process, then it is only logical that “non-academic fit” becomes an important part of the consideration by both colleges and students.
EU (outside of UK) perspective here: if you asked this question, families wouldn’t even understand it.
You pick your academic subject/course/program first. Then you find out whether and where you can get admitted.
Most any large public will offer most any subject, and while there are variations in content and difficulty, hands on experience, coop opportunities etc between schools, the biggest variations are between subjects, general types of schools (think Cal states vs UCs) and, very roughly, geography (you’d expect students to be better prepared and standards to be higher in large cities vs regional schools, with lots of exceptions, some countries have north/south divides etc).
If there are general differences in “vibe”, politics, academic standards etc, between schools, they aren’t clear cut or found out easily - magazines have tried, but there are no real conclusive rankings for undergrad beyond UK universities and French grande ecoles.
If students/families do have a choice and aren’t forced to go to a specific school because it is they only one they could get admitted to in a very competitive subject, despite stellar stats (European schools only offer combined premed/med programs, if you get in you GO) or because they needed to profit from a regional admission advantage (again, like cal state service areas, and a regional advantage may override stellar stats) or simply have to commute from their parents’ home, then and only then they may get picky about location/locale.
They may have always wanted to live in Berlin. Or they may like that the university of Passau has something resembling a campus (American families probably wouldn’t recognise it as such. More like a general clustering of buIldings in a general area of town, and no dorms).
At most any school the difference in vibe, politics, academic bent etc between subjects would override any general difference between schools. In fact, you could tell most students’ general subject area by simply looking at them. You could never guess at their school.
The TINY number of international students who post here are the rare exceptions who who have the drive (and sometimes the means) to look beyond those criteria.
I would say this is how most American students determine where they want to go to school. Location and program. And cost. I hardly know anyone who went on any kind of multiple college tour to find a college with the best fit.
" I hardly know anyone who went on any kind of multiple college tour to find a college with the best fit."
Yeah, the thread about how many college tours people took was an eye opener for me. We’ve done a few tours simply because we were in the area for other reasons, but beyond that, we only toured 3-4 of my son’s top choices in hopes of narrowing down the list a little and even that felt like A LOT. (I get bored easily.)
When I was reading on that number of college tour thread how many tours people took their kids on, it was clear to me that I just don’t love my kids nearly as much as they do. Or they’re all crazy. Either one.
OK, I do have to admit since DH is not familiar with the American college system, I have been known to take a wee bit of advantage of his lack of knowledge of how the process works. It’s only fair since I’m pretty sure he makes up words and claims they’re British idiom. Here are a few of the things I’ve convinced him of relating to American college.
- One of us is going to need to sell a kidney to pay for the older son’s college, and it’s traditional in America that the dad is the one who makes this loving gesture.
- Any college north of say the Atlanta area that must be visited in the winter requires the father of the child to accompany the minor.
- American fathers take great pride in being the ones to fill in any lengthy or otherwise useless paperwork.
Before you feel too badly for him, remember there was a 50/50 chance our son was going to British college and I assure you if that had been the case DH would have been convincing me of similar “traditions” regarding school in England.
I believe there is also a much bigger difference in other countries regarding government(public) vs. private schools. Most of the publics (except for the tippy top ones) are usually only for poorer students and are not regarded as rigorous. They will also usually have less funding, less resources and below average job placement.
@CValle -I’d love to hear more about your experience with college admissions in India.
But I don’t believe kids in other countries really consider “fit” as much as Americans do.
“I believe there is also a much bigger difference in other countries regarding government(public) vs. private schools. Most of the publics (except for the tippy top ones) are usually only for poorer students and are not regarded as rigorous. They will also usually have less funding, less resources and below average job placement.”
You can’t really generalize like that.
In countries like China and Taiwan, the top unis are all publics and privates generally are worse. In virtually all of Europe, virtually every uni (and all the top ones) are public.
^That’s true PurpleTitan.
I was mainly thinking of colleges in India when I had said that. India has some really really good publics (IITs) but also a lot of not so good colleges.
In Happydad’s time in Venezuela, the publics were very nearly free, and could select the top candidates. Second tier students ended up at the privates.
The few private universities in European countries tend to be very small, business focused and financially or administratively struggling, or they are private in mostly name only, ie catholic schools in historically majority catholic countries with strong concordates in education, where the lines between church and state have been blurred for many centuries.