You assumption is correct. MIT is a front runner for now with a couple more of about the same caliber to follow.
But the price tag is almost the same for all of them.
Kid was not promised anything. Kid has a great work ethic and I don’t think would put less effort anyway.
Steve Jobs was not an engineer (nor did he ever have the intention of becoming one, the college he started and and left did not offer engineering as a degree, and he stated later that the Calligraphy class he audited there after dropping out may have been the most valuable experience he had there).
This may seem like nit picking, but I think there is some value (maybe not enough to someone who can’t meet their EFC or is set on avoiding loans) in a school that brings a broader perspective to an engineering major than just an engineering focus. I am sure you know I am referring to Mudd, which is one of your D’s choices. Their mission statement is “to educate engineers, scientists, and mathematicians well versed in all of these areas and in the humanities and the social sciences so that they may assume leadership in their fields with a clear understanding of the impact of their work on society.” For our kid (& family finances), we thought that was worth the expenditure. Of course your mileage may vary. And that may not be an important factor in her decision.
I really don’t think Steve Jobs is an example to be followed - he was an eccentric figure who alienated many, and founded a company that makes aesthetically strong products. He had some important insights, mainly about the importance of design in the creation of engineering, but also did a lot of things that really were very bad for his company and sent them into a spiral of uncertainty (he was fired for good reason from his own company). He also died at a very opportune time, when at the peak of his popularity - if he were alive right now he would be very quickly going down with the ship that is Silicon Valley’s reputation.
In the end, I think there are better role models than polarizing businessmen who make a lot of money off of consumer products. And besides, luck has an important part to play in why he was successful (like being born in Silicon Valley before it was Silicon Valley).
No Woz…no Apple.
I’ll be thrilled when people stop holding Steve Jobs up as some kind of paragon of American ingenuity. I’ll be even more happy when they stop making movies about him. Sadly, Bill Gates is a much better human being and a much better “engineer” and I bet we won’t be seeing a bunch of biopics for him when he passes because it’s not fashionable.
Perhaps Steve Jobs was not the best example. Would love to hear more takes on the original question.
I think it’s not a question that has a real answer, though you’ll get different people arguing both sides rather vehemently. There are advantages to the “elite” schools, but whether a given student will actually benefit is a highly individualized question and whether those sets of advantages are worth the premium is perhaps even more individualized.
For some students it might be worth it. For some it might not.
On the possibility of dropping out: generally students of higher academic ability will manage to finish the degree even if the curriculum is harder. A high dropout rate for engineering is in part associated with the fact that it’s difficult and many are allowed to attempt engineering when they have no real hope of graduating because they are in way over their heads. Besides having a strong support system, what top schools do to make their graduation rates so high is not to admit students that won’t be able to finish, and to allow their own students some leeway and forgiveness for various issues of misconduct. State schools are more self-serve and have a “sink or swim” mentality, and that is a credit to elite schools.
"But the price tag is almost the same for all of them.’’
Ballerina- your kid got into USC early. That usually only happens to kids that USC wants.
Did she get a merit scholarship offer from USC?
@menloparkmom She only got offered Presidential. It will be cheaper for her to go to UCLA. But now we also have MIT, Caltech, Cornell and HMC to consider as of right now.
Ok. as a fellow Calif Mom, and as some one who had a similar conundrum 10 yrs ago- go for the cheapest school.
DS turned down 12 more “prestigious” U’s, [including Pomona, Chicago, Brown, Dartmouth] than his cheapest school and he is no worse for it 10 yrs later. In fact he is a Caltech doing his PhD.
She can always to go MIT, Caltech , etc, etc for her PhD if she wants to. And bytw- DS did not even apply to those 2 colleges for UG but was accepted for grad school.
the cream will always rise to the top.
Was there a pre-application money talk where you and the kid discussed how cost would affect the choice of college? If so, what was the agreement?
If it is cheaper to go to UCLA than USC with a (half tuition?) scholarship, that implies that you are California residents, so that the choices are presumably several ~$60,000 schools, USC at around $40,000 (assuming half tuition scholarship), and UCLA at around $30,000 to $34,000. No other choices (including other UCs or CSUs)?
For UCLA, she was admitted to her desired engineering major, correct?
This really boils down to whether or not you can afford it or not and if not, how far in debt you’d have to go to make it happen. It’s generally accepted that it is unwise to carry more than one year’s salary in total debt.
FWIW, a family graduate from MIT, another from Stanford and two acquaintances from CalTech/JPL all independently recommended against our son choosing their respective institutions for UG. They raved about their graduate programs though. They are small data points and I’m sure others would strenuously disagree.
In the end, she should go with her gut and not go to deeply into debt.
As a side note, I am a bit surprised that a student who has been responsible and successful enough to get into those schools is being required to hand over the login to her school portal. Our son’s school strongly advised students not to give login information to their parents and for the parents to respect that it was now the student’s responsibility and not to ask.
Correct. Also Top 6 UCs and CPSLO. All CS and Engineering with exception of UCB. CS for UCB, but she doesn’t want to go to UCB. The only Regents offered was for UCB. So she will have to deal with difficulty register for classes, getting research opportunities, etc.
Also intellectual fit is the most important requirement she is looking for.
For intellectual fit, there are a few dimensions to consider:
Regarding UCB, if she applied to the College of Letters and Science, she was admitted undeclared. The CS major now requires a 3.3 GPA in its prerequisites to declare, due to capacity limitations. If she applied to the EECS major in the College of Engineering, she was admitted directly to the major. The EECS major does have more physics and math requirements than the L&S CS major.
CS has gotten very popular in recent years (UCB L&S CS has grown from an open major with about 100 students per year to reaching its capacity with over 300 students per year in the last several years – not including the nearly 300 students per year in EECS), so she should expect large classes in CS wherever she goes. Even Harvey Mudd’s introductory CS course has 200 students (and that is small compared to 1,000 at UCB, 700 at Stanford and Harvard, etc.).
For the student or the parent?
One year’s pay for a CS graduate can be a considerable amount that is larger than what is prudent for a student to take in student loan debt (and that amount would need a parent co-signer). It is risky because taking on such a large amount of debt will force the student to chase the money when making academic (PhD? change major?), job, career, and other decisions, and because economic and industry cycles mean that the current good job market for CS graduates may not be as good four years from now.
For the parent, it is usually not a good idea to cosign student loans or take parent loans for undergraduate study, because that usually implies that the parent really does not have the money and may be financially dependent on the student’s ability to pay off the loans after graduation.
I’d also note that “one year’s salary” is not equal in terms of spending power based on where you graduate. First of all, loans are not tax deductible, so you’re going to be paying out of your after-tax earnings. The next issue is cost of living, and it’s much more expensive, even if you live cheaply, to live in the high COL areas that elite institutions generally place jobs in. The networking effect of even top tier schools is regional (Stanford has more connections in Silicon Valley than in the tri-state area for example, vice versa with Harvard and MIT), so your best advantage for those elite schools comes if you work in high COL areas.
So based on taxes and COL floors, it’s much easier to pay off one year’s salary with smaller overall numbers for both salary and debt. But personally I think that that’s an overestimate of what you should be paying - at a 6% interest rate on loans (a pretty reasonably accurate rate for large loans) and a 3% year-on-end raise with initial salary = initial loans, it takes 13 years to pay off at 10% of your income, 8 years at 15%, 6 years at 20%. That’s a long time to be in debt (that 10-20% comes out of other expenses like having a house or children) and it really, really has to pay off financially in the long run to be worth it? It does sometimes, but more often than not that’s excessive debt and I’d suggest limiting it to something like 50% of salary.
I would just like to comment that this thread and the posters on it are incredibly helpful to those of us struggling with similar types of choices/issues. I wish all the posters on other threads on CC were this well informed and reasonable in their advice/debate of issues.
You don’t have to pay 60k for a top engineering school. Georgia Tech is only 45k.
@ucbalumnus and @NeoDymium, good points. I spaced the fact that The CS average is about 50% higher than engineering. In broad terms that would make it $60k and would certainly have to be adjusted based on spending power (i.e. how much of the base COL would eat). It would be a heavy saddle and not one I’d personally recommend, but manageable at a CS wage or an engineers wage. Again, doable vs. smart, that’s in the eyes of the beholder.
@Ballerina016, could you expand on what intellectual fit means to you? Also, is she CS everywhere or engineering at some?