<p>
[quote]
I don't know what you really meant by that statement, but I'm definitely proud that I go to the most fun elite school; I am getting a top 10 education while staying sober only three nights in a week in most cases.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And thats why everyone hates Duke.</p>
<p>I reported his post, but nobody responded...</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Speaking of Cornell, I found this thread particularly amusing:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why don't we block you instead? At least I look at things objectively. You incessantly tout Cornell's academic and aesthetic greatness on basically every thread, even where is innapropriate.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>At least he doesn't demean others and their alma maters in the process...</p>
<p>CayugaRed2005 is an obvious supporter of Cornell, but he isn't an incessant fanboy of it as you seem to be of Duke (as is apparent in this thread).</p>
<p>(This thread should probably come to a close soon...)</p>
<p>^ On another note, EAD's SATs increased 70 points in both CR and Math. I'm glad all that studying and preparation for the SATs paid off.</p>
<p>My point is, multiple retakes of the SAT tends to increase scores and as EAD's case shows, often times quite dramatically. </p>
<p>
[quote]
If the more distinguished faculty members at Michigan and Berkeley cared about teaching rather than research/citations/awards, then they would choose to teach at places like Duke, Dartmouth and HYP.
[/quote]
HYP's faculty is very distinguished and are not hired for their dedication to undergraduate teaching. Here's a link to a recent article about Princeton professors attaining tenure...it's contrary to what you think:
Tenure</a> road rough for professors - The Daily Princetonian</p>
<p>Top SAT/ACT scoring undergrads are common at all top colleges. Distinguished faculty across a broad range of academic disciplines are less common.</p>
<p>cayuga,
Many thanks for your acceptance of my status as a "trusted source on higher education." Actually, I've made no claims to that role, but I have consistently tried to support my arguments with supporting evidence. Hopefully, this trend will pick up on CC. :)</p>
<p>As for EAD's ascribing to me the rankings for Teaching Excellence, I appreciate the thought, but the source is USNWR. I was just citing the results in my posts. For the record, this survey was done some time ago (1995) and perhaps things have changed on some of these college campuses. Here is the full listing:</p>
<pre><code>NATIONAL UNIVERSITIES
</code></pre>
<p>1 Dartmouth
2 Brown
3 W&M
4 Rice
5 Princeton
6 Stanford
7 Duke
8 Miami U (OH)
9 Notre Dame
10 Yale
11 U Virginia
12 U Chicago
13 Emory
13 UC Santa Cruz
15 Vanderbilt
16 Boston College
17 Harvard
18 Northwestern
19 Caltech
20 Wake Forest
20 U North Carolina
22 BYU
22 Wash U
24 Georgetown
24 Tufts</p>
<p>Top USNWR Nat'l Universities That Didn't Make the "Best Teaching" Top 25 List
MIT
U Penn
Columbia
Cornell
J Hopkins
UC Berkeley
Carnegie Mellon
U Michigan
UCLA</p>
<pre><code>LACs
</code></pre>
<p>1 Carleton
2 Swarthmore
3 Williams
4 Grinnell
5 Amherst
6 Earlham
7 Haverford
8 St. John's
9 Colorado College
10 Davidson
11 Oberlin
12 Pomona
12 Wellesley
14 Bowdoin
15 St. Olaf
16 Bryn Mawr
16 Macalester
18 Bates
18 Middlebury
18 Reed
21 Kenyon
21 Spelman
23 Smith
24 Sewanee
25 Centre</p>
<p>Thanks, Hawkette. I would personally take these types of surveys with a grain of salt. Out of curiosity, who was surveyed? Students? Faculty? Administrative officials?</p>
<p>I have many friends from who have gone on for PhD study at many top schools. And, quite frankly, there isn't any rhyme or reason to explain their views on the undergraduate experience at these schools. </p>
<p>Friends at Harvard and Stanford claim that the professors could care less about most undergrads, shuffling all of the grading and mentoring on to their TAs. Other friends at Michigan (who, coincidentally, attended Cornell and Harvard undergrad), are pleasantly surprised by the amount of attention and quality teaching that undergraduates receive. </p>
<p>At Cornell, you could be in a department with ten faculty and five graduating seniors (linguistics, horticulture, textiles, medieval history, etc.), or you could be in a department with two hundred faculty and five hundred graduating seniors (biology, economics). And the teaching quality will differ not only across departments but across classes.</p>
<p>The point is that the amount of faculty exposure and quality teaching provided to undergraduates is highly variable across all college campuses and is a function of both a) the student and b) the student's department. And making assertions that Columbia or UPenn's teaching is subpar relative to Boston College or Vanderbilt just strikes me as silly.</p>
<p>I was, of course referring to the hiring of strippers to entertain at Duke parties. So classy.</p>
<p>Cayuga,
My understanding is that the same folks who vote in the PA surveys were the ones who produced the results for the Teaching Excellence survey. </p>
<p>As for your other comments, I take all subjective assessments with a grain of salt (and that obviously includes the Peer Assessment scoring) as the standards and information being applied vary from responder to responder. </p>
<p>Having said that, I am not ready to call them all "silly" as I think one can make judgments about how undergraduate-friendly a university is when you take opinions from multiple sources and they all seem to say the same thing. For example, here are the results from the Sparknotes website and how a smallish representative number of students opined on five questions related to undergraduate life at the USNWR Top 30 National Universities. The results rank how undergraduate-friendly an institution is as seen by its students:</p>
<p>Rank Based on Student Responses , Total Points , College</p>
<p>1 , 16 , Princeton***</p>
<p>2 , 32 , Notre Dame***
3 , 38 , Vanderbilt***</p>
<p>4 , 50 , Dartmouth***
5 , 51 , Wake Forest***
6 , 51 , Yale***
7 , 52 , Emory***
8 , 57 , Stanford***
9 , 58 , U Chicago***
10 , 60 , Rice***
11 , 61 , Duke***
12 , 61 , Cal Tech***
13 , 62 , U Virginia***
14 , 68 , Wash U StL***
15 , 69 , U Penn
16 , 73 , Brown***
17 , 79 , Georgetown***
18 , 79 , U North Carolina***</p>
<p>19 , 90 , Tufts***
20 , 91 , Cornell
21 , 95 , Columbia</p>
<p>22 , 105 , USC
23 , 107 , UC Berkeley
24 , 111 , U Michigan
25 , 112 , J Hopkins
26 , 114 , UCLA
27 , 115 , MIT
28 , 116 , Northwestern***
29 , 118 , Carnegie Mellon
30 , 120 , Harvard***</p>
<p>***indicates college was recognized by USNWR for Classroom Teaching Excellence</p>
<p>These results, in combination with the Classroom Teaching Excellence results, indicate that there very well could be some distinct correlation between Teaching Excellence and how undergraduate-friendly a college is perceived to be. I think one can also argue strongly that the PA scores have very little correlation with Teaching Excellence and with how undergraduate-friendly a campus may be. </p>
<p>Finally, I think it should be acknowledged that the results of ANY survey may not match the individual experience of a student. These are general, broad-brush, results and should not be literally interpreted as what every student will experience on each campus.</p>
<p>
[quote]
but I have consistently tried to support my arguments with supporting evidence.
[/quote]
Except the evidence that supports the existence of the academic cabals you claim exist. </p>
<p>Although I'm sympathetic to your reluctance here--who knows what its members would do if they learned that you possessed grainy videotape of their dark ceremonies, or a smuggled copy of the membership manual. They're a dangerous bunch!</p>
<p>
[quote]
At Duke, there is not a SINGLE class that is taught by anyone besides a tenured professor.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't believe this is true. You might want to recheck the accuracy of this claim.</p>
<p>There is this species called the "Graduate Teaching Assistant" found on every corners of the Duke campus, the characteristics of which are:</p>
<p>"Teaching Assistant Responsibilities</p>
<p>Within individual departments, graduate TAs perform a variety of roles related to teaching that represent different levels of independence and direct contact with undergraduate students... TA assignments include serving as Laboratory Assistants, Laboratory Directors, Graders of Essays and Examinations, Course Development Assistants, Leaders of Discussion Sections, Course Instructors, Teaching Apprentices, and Head Teaching Assistant. Often more than one of these roles might be assumed in a single TA assignment..."</p>
<p>This species is now presumed to be extinct ... 'cause according to one extremely reliable resource closest to the Duke-dom, "At Duke, there is not a SINGLE class that is taught by anyone besides a tenured professor."</p>
<p>Let's not gang up on EAD now. After all, he is only sober three out of every seven nights of the week...</p>
<p>presumably drinking alone in his dorm room</p>
<p>In what ways would a college demonstrate that it is undergraduate-friendly?
If undergraduate-friendly means "acting in the best interests of students", then it opens up a debate about what is in the best interests of students.</p>
<p>Sorry if this was already addressed....</p>
<p>Hawkette, how come I see you often posting the "Teaching Excellence ranking" but not the "Overall Undergraduate Excellence" (aka, PA) ranking or "Student Quality Ranking"? The way ytou should phrase your posts is as follows:</p>
<p>Teaching Excellence Ranking:
1 Dartmouth
2 Brown
3 W&M
4 Rice
5 Princeton
6 Stanford
7 Duke
8 Miami U (OH)
9 Notre Dame
10 Yale
11 U Virginia
12 U Chicago
13 Emory
13 UC Santa Cruz
15 Vanderbilt
16 Boston College
17 Harvard
18 Northwestern
19 Caltech
20 Wake Forest
20 U North Carolina
22 BYU
22 Wash U
24 Georgetown
24 Tufts</p>
<p>Overall Undergraduate Academic Excellence:
1 Harvard University
1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
1 Princeton University
1 Stanford University
5 University of California-Berkeley
5 Yale University
7 California Institute of Technology
8 Columbia University
8 Cornell University
8 Johns Hopkins University
8 University of Chicago
12 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
12 University of Pennsylvania
14 Brown University
14 Duke University
16 Dartmouth College
16 University of Virginia
18 Carnegie Mellon University
18 University of California-Los Angeles
18 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill
21 University of Texas-Austin
21 University of Wisconsin-Madison
21 Washington University-St Louis
24 Emory University
24 Georgetown University
24 Georgia Institute of Technology
24 Rice University
24 University of Illinois-Urbana Champaign
24 University of Southern California
24 Vanderbilt University</p>
<p>Student Quality ranking:
1 Harvard University
1 Yale University
3 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
3 Princeton University
5 Columbia University
6 Washington University-St Louis
7 Brown University
7 California Institute of Technology
7 Dartmouth College
7 Stanford University
7 University of Pennsylvania
12 Duke University
13 Rice University
14 University of California-Berkeley
15 Cornell University
15 Emory University
15 Tufts University
15 University of Notre Dame
19 Georgetown University
19 Northwestern University
19 University of California-Los Angeles
19 University of Southern California
23 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
24 Johns Hopkins University
24 University of Chicago</p>
<p>
[quote]
I go to a top 10 school. You went to Wisconsin.
[/quote]
Um... Wisconsin's faculty reputation and scholarly excellence is quite a bit better than Duke's. Here's proof:</p>
<p>Department ... Duke ... Wisconsin
PA ................. 4.4 ...... 4.1
Business .......... 14 ....... 29
Engineering(UC). 25 ....... 13
Engineering(G)... 35 ....... 15
Math ............... 21 ....... 14
Statistics ......... 6 ......... NR
Computer Sci .... 20 ....... 11
Biological Sci .... 12 ........ 15
Chemistry ........ 43 ........ 7
Physics ........... 29 ........ 16
Earth Sci ......... 34 ........ 15
Economics ....... 21 ........ 11
English ............ 12 ........ 16
History ............ 15 ........ 11
Political Sci ....... 8 ......... 16
Psychology ....... 28 ........ 9
Sociology ......... 14 ........ 1
Education ......... NR ....... 12</p>
<p>Btw, anyone still believes that the PA is based SOLELY on grad ranking?</p>
<p>^^^ i totally agree. Wisconsin in the world of academics is a MAJOR powerhouse.</p>
<p>It spends $800 million dollars a year on research and development, second after Johns Hopkins whopping $1.5 billion.</p>
<p>This is relative to HYPSM ~$400 million dollars in grants and federal funding.</p>
<p>Go Hop!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Alexandre, are you trying to rekindle the flames of this dying and silly debate or are you simply being facetious?</p>
<p>In the meantime, the above statement clearly underscores why I think the definition of the Peer Assessment is just about anything one wants it to be regardless of foundation or merit. </p>
<p>With all due respect to you, I think that this list has one heck of a mismomer for a title:</p>
<p>Overall **Undergraduate **Academic Excellence:
1 Harvard University
1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
1 Princeton University
1 Stanford University
5 University of California-Berkeley</p>
<p>Is maintaining credibility no longer important?</p>
<p>Alex,
I've never heard of the "Overall Undergraduate Academic Ranking." I think you meant the Peer Assessment ranking which we all know (but not all of us will admit) is certainly not a ranking of overall undergraduate academics. </p>
<p>As often is the case, xiggi said it best in # 292:</p>
<p>"The best explanation is that the PA is a subjective assessment of the reputation of a ... school academic reputation. What constitutes an academic reputation is obviously entirely in the eye of the beholder. If that beholder happens to be a Dean or a Provost, so be it. If that beholder happens to be a low-level administrative hired help ... so be it as well. After all, who cares!</p>
<p>"Here is the reality: the Peer Assessment SHOULD be an important metric. However, there are no indication whatsoever that there is any degree of integrity or real knowledge in the responses. However, we DO have accounts of admission of manipulation and lack of knowledge. Thus the statement "in the eyes of Presidents, Provosts, Deans" requires a huge leap of faith. </p>
<p>"So, what's the conclusion: a pretty simplistic one. People who enjoy seeing their schools "earning" a PA that yields a higher ranking do support it ...blindly and obsessively. People who find fault with the current use and methodology of the PA criticize it with equal zeal and subjectivity. Both sides have little difficulty finding "sources" to back up their chosen arguments. And none become wiser!"</p>
<p>Hawkette, the PA is a measure of a "school's undergraduate academic excellence". That is how the USNWR defines it. As such, I stand by my statement. If you are going to continuously rank universities according to the "teaching excellence", you should, for consistancy's sake, list the academic excellence ranking along with it.</p>
<p>Xiggi, I am not sure I understand your point. I believe the PA is a measure of undergraduate academic excellence. That hasn't changed.</p>
<p>And thanks for questioning my credibility.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Overall Undergraduate Academic Excellence:
1 Harvard University
1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
1 Princeton University
1 Stanford University
5 University of California-Berkeley
[/quote]
Xiggi, is your only problem with this list the presence of Cal?</p>
<p>May I remind you that, USNWR rankings for undergraduate academic programs in engineering and business rank Cal #2 and #3, respectively.</p>