<p>2170 on the SAT is in the 98th percentile - I would call that "stellar." I think some people need a reality check.</p>
<p>In response to someone: I'm international and I took the ACT</p>
<p>OK, lets assume that ACT and SAT are completely equivalent exams for the purposes of college admissions and that ACT is not 'looked down upon'. Nevertheless, there are some significant differences, aren't there?</p>
<ol>
<li>ACT has Science questions while SAT does not.</li>
<li>ACT essay is optional (though I know some colleges require it).</li>
<li>ACT allows you to choose which score to send, so colleges don't need to know how many times you took the test and how badly you scored those other times.</li>
<li>SAT is reported in a way that colleges can take the highest of each of the 3 parts- i.e, superscoring is possible in SAT (I assume it is not possible with ACT-right?).</li>
</ol>
<p>Based on the above differences, I don't think a direct comparison can be made as in "This student's SAT score of X is equal to/better than/worse than that student's ACT score of Y".</p>
<p>The ACT and SAT measure different things. SAT measures sheer reasoning abiltiy; ACT measures content mastery. The best scenario is to do really well on both and submit both. That's what the op should do, imo.</p>
<p>Anyway, the main response to the OP is that a sufficiently high score on the ACT makes as much of a case as any admission test can that the applicant can safely be admitted to the college. Perfect scorers on either test may or may not get into their first-choice colleges, </p>
<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=377882%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=377882</a> </p>
<p>so an applicant always needs more than just test scores, but for the top-scoring students applying to the most selective colleges, there is no longer any college with a brand preference. Today a high ACT scorer can get into any of the top colleges that formerly had a preference without submitting SAT I scores at all. (Some of those colleges require up to three SAT Subject Test scores, and some request student self-reporting of AP test scores </p>
<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=371690%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=371690</a> </p>
<p>but all will make an offer of admission to a student who has a balanced, competitive application even if the application is not accompanied by SAT I scores.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
The ACT and SAT measure different things. SAT measures sheer reasoning abiltiy; ACT measures content mastery. The best scenario is to do really well on both and submit both. That's what the op should do, imo.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I've read this too often to ignore it. Am I really the only person who thinks the <em>opposite</em>? Having taken the ACT and SAT both within a month, I'm convinced that the SAT tests content mastery while the ACT tests pure reasoning. Why else do people usually claim the SAT is teachable, while the ACT is not?</p>
<p>Yes, I beg to differ as well about the classic opinions regarding each test. Is the ACT Science anything like mastery!?</p>
<p>My son, who has taken both tests more than once (I only took the SAT I, and only took it once, in my day) says that both tests are primarily reading tests. Someone who reads accurately, rapidly, and thoughtfully should score pretty well on either brand of test. Even the math questions on each test largely involve making sure you know what the questions are asking.</p>
<p>So...for the purpose of discussion...if all schools are now accepting ACT-including the elites, and most people score better on the ACT than they do SAT, then why bother to take the CB's SAT? Or...another way to look at the topic...if you have two applicants with simular academic credentials-one took SAT-say scored 2200+/1 and one took the ACT-say scored 34+/-...would they lean toward the SAT applicant because supposedly the SAT may be considered more difficult to garner those scores?</p>
<p>SAT is closer to an intelligence test than ACT.</p>
<p>Colleges simply don't "lean" anymore to one test or the other. They see that a candidate for admission has got past the score threshold that their experience deems sufficient for admission, and then they look at other information in the admission file. </p>
<p>Regarding the other reply, it would be more accurate to say that both college admission tests and IQ tests are tests of scholastic ability rather than "general intelligence." That was the opinion of Julian Stanley, who may have been personally acquainted with more really high-scoring young people in the United States than any investigator since Lewis Terman. Kenneth Hopkins and Julian Stanley, studying how IQ tests compare to college entrance tests, conclude that IQ test scores vary not according to general intelligence, but according to scholastic ability (Hopkins & Stanley 1981, p. 348). They note </p>
<p>"The Binet scales and their descendants are perhaps the most publicized accomplishments of modern psychology. The term IQ, though often misunderstood, is a household word. The practical success of the 'IQ test,' in its ability to place individuals along a spectrum of scholastic aptitude from dull to bright and in its relationship to school and occupational success, has overshadowed doubt about what the tests were measuring in an exact, psychological sense." </p>
<p>They go on to mention the famous discussion of the meaning of the word "intelligence" in the Journal of Educational Psychology in 1921, in which fourteen psychologists came up with fourteen distinct definitions for that term, leading Harvard Professor of Psychology E. G. Boring to declare that intelligence is "that which an intelligence test measures," avoiding the issue of checking the construct validity of IQ tests. Hopkins and Stanley were more up to date with the latest research in 1981 than many authors on gifted education were decades later when they wrote (p. 364), </p>
<p>"Most authorities feel that current intelligence tests are more aptly described as 'scholastic aptitude' tests because they are so highly related to academic performance, although current use suggests that the term intelligence test is going to be with us for some time. This reservation is based not on the opinion that intelligence tests do not reflect intelligence but on the belief that there are other kinds of intelligence that are not reflected in current tests; the term intelligence is too inclusive." </p>
<p>Hopkins, Kenneth D. & Stanley, Julian C. (1981). Educational and Psychological Measurement and Evaluation. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall.</p>
<p>Thanks for the research Tokenadult!</p>
<p>It is also worth noting that "intelligence" cannot be learned- especially with a $1,200 Kaplan course. SAT and ACT are not designed to be intelligence tests and both of them do the job that they are designed to do- compare students from different demographics to each other. A 4.0 student with a 1720 or 28 would raise alarm and a 3.1 student with a 2320 or 34 would tell the ad officers about the rigor of his school.</p>
<p>3 years ago an Ivy League coach told me that his school would not consider the ACT score if the applicant had also taken the SATs.</p>
<p>I'd urge any student who is really curious about this issue simply to contact the college admission officers and ask them what they think TODAY about different brand names of tests. I know Yale used to have the reputation of preferring the SAT to the ACT, pretty recently, but just at the beginning of this month a Yale admission officer visited St. Paul, Minnesota for student recruiting and when asked about this issue said that Yale has NO preference anymore. Students can still meet college admission officers </p>
<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=389153%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=389153</a> </p>
<p>at various college fairs and regional information sessions still to occur this fall, and they can also write an email to college admission offices and ask this question. I already rewarded the student who found the most definite current statement of (weak) preference with an essay reading, and I don't think anyone can top him by finding a college more selective than Randolph-Macon college in Virginia that strongly prefers the SAT to the ACT. ALL colleges in the country, without exception, admit some students on the basis of ACT scores now. </p>
<p>Times have changed. Colleges now know it is silly to have a brand-name preference among the two major brands of college entrance tests in the United States, because at the high end of scoring on either test, it's clear the applicant can handle a competitive college environment, and at the middle range of scoring (from which most students are admitted to most colleges) there isn't much reason to choose one test over the other.</p>
<p>APOL, the answer to your question is that scores on the two tests can be easily compared for difficulty. Last year roughly 1.5 million students took the SAT, 1.3 million took the ACT. About 21000 students scored 2200 or above on the 2007 SATs. About 17000 ACT takers scored 33 or above. (Of course, there is some overlap; some students take both tests.) So a university would rationally consider those two scores - 2200 SAT and 33 ACT - as being functionally identical. While a given person might score higher on the ACT than on the SAT, and another higher on the SAT than on the ACT, neither test is inherently "easier" than the other; each produces a bell curve of scores among the million+ students who take it. So it's basically not true that "most people do better on the ACT than on the SAT."</p>
<p>There are various direct comparisons of the two tests that have been either through large national groups of students who took both tests </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>or through comparisons of students applying to the same university system. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The main take-home point for the OP and for anyone else reading this thread is that colleges have developed their own sense of how high a score is high enough for a student to thrive at that college, and thus colleges just have to look for the known successful score level on either of two brands of tests to know what to do about an application for admission. It's not rocket science anymore to figure out how to compare ACT to SAT scores.</p>
<p>Does anyone know how to set up a poll on this? I'm really curious to see which test students are submitting. I bet you'll see more SATs.</p>
<p>can my ACT subscores in Math/Reading convert into SAT Math/Verbal
34 math 33rdg</p>
<p>Thanks for info tokenadult.</p>
<p>Guys, before you post more questions or comments please follow the links provided by tokenadult in this thread. Most likely your answer will be in there.</p>
<p>Oh, FOR SURE more students who participate on CC are submitting SAT scores than ACT scores, but that doesn't prove anything about what college admission offices think about each brand of test. And more generally, a poll asking for voluntary responses would tell us nothing about the real world. One professor of statistics, who is a co-author of a highly regarded AP statistics textbook, has tried to popularize the phrase that "Voluntary response data are worthless" to go along with the phrase "correlation does not imply causation." Other statistics teachers are gradually picking up this phrase.</p>
<p>
<p>-----Original Message----- From: Paul Velleman [SMTP:<a href="mailto:pfv2@cornell.edu">pfv2@cornell.edu</a>] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 5:10 PM To: <a href="mailto:apstat-l@etc.bc.ca">apstat-l@etc.bc.ca</a>; Kim Robinson Cc: <a href="mailto:mmbalach@mtu.edu">mmbalach@mtu.edu</a> Subject: Re: qualtiative study</p>
<p>Sorry Kim, but it just aint so. Voluntary response data are <em>worthless</em>. One excellent example is the books by Shere Hite. She collected many responses from biased lists with voluntary response and drew conclusions that are roundly contradicted by all responsible studies. She claimed to be doing only qualitative work, but what she got was just plain garbage. Another famous example is the Literary Digest "poll". All you learn from voluntary response is what is said by those who choose to respond. Unless the respondents are a substantially large fraction of the population, they are very likely to be a biased -- possibly a very biased -- subset. Anecdotes tell you nothing at all about the state of the world. They can't be "used only as a description" because they describe nothing but themselves.
</p>
<p><a href="http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=194473&tstart=36420%5B/url%5D">http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=194473&tstart=36420</a> </p>
<p>I mention this because I know there are high school students reading this thread, possibly including some (like my son) who will be taking the AP statistics course this year, and I want it to be clear that a voluntary response poll here on CC about who is submitting what test would tell us exactly NOTHING about what the general practice of college applicants is. </p>
<p>To see where test scores are sent by students applying to college, look at the state reports for the SAT </p>
<p>or for the ACT. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.act.org/news/data/07/statemenu.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.act.org/news/data/07/statemenu.html</a> </p>
<p>Near the end of each individual state report, for each brand of test, is a pageful of data on the top colleges to which students in each state sent scores from or the other test. There are some interesting regional differences in which colleges are most applied-to in different states.</p>