<p>@actorparent : as you can tell- this is a VERY contentious subject- because all of us want our kids to end up in what are perceived as the “best” schools. IMHO, whether or not people like to admit it - there is a HUGE prestige factor in theatre programs- everyone hoping that it will open up the path to glory etc… Trouble is- there is NO agreement among professionals, let alone parents, on what those “best” schools are- and there are a million stories of kids who never went to college, or went to middle of nowhere U and hit it big. The odds are tough for anyone - and the kids (and parents!) fight a WAR to get a slot. Then someone comes along and says (intentionally or unintentionally) “well, that school takes X number of humans…so is less impressive than school that takes Y” - and if it’s my kid’s school you are talking about (and it so often is- my kid is at NYU, which I contend is the most hated theatre school in America- or maybe just on this board, it seems to get bashed fairly often- though it has stout defenders as well) suddenly I’m offended- b/c frankly, the day D got the email - watching her dream come true, was one of the best in my life. </p>
<p>Not that I don’t get where you are coming from- I spent a LOT of time researching the #s various programs took- and schools with higher #s or better odds seemed like a great idea. It was a hesitation with Otterbein- that class is tiny- and yet, 2 girls from my D’s HS were accepted, and are happily studying there this year- what are the odds? Do your research, pick your schools, as @Bisouu so often says, love your safety, and go from there.</p>
<p>toowonderful, I hear you! I’m glad you understand where I’m coming from! My reasons for asking were NOT about “prestige” or thinking “more competitive is better” - quite the opposite! I know from these boards that there are many top-notch, quality programs, and that’s all I want for my daughter - the right fit. However, it has often been stressed here that the list has to have a “mix” of 1) elite schools that take so few it’s almost like winning the lottery; 2) top-notch, quality schools that aren’t AS insanely competitive to get in (though still competitive since they’re audition schools, obviously); and 3) safety schools. </p>
<p>So my question was just aimed at trying to make sure we have enough of the “number 2” category. As I said, I was THRILLED to see that Marymount Manhattan was on Soozievt’s list of schools that don’t attract the INSANE number of applicants from all across the country that, say CMU does, because Marymount is one of my daughter’s top choices. It’s still an excellent school (graduates includes Annaleigh Ashford, Andrew Rannells, Jenna Ushkowitz of “Glee” and also the actress who plays Marley Rose on that show, I forgot her name, Alexander Skarsgaard from “True Blood,” Laverne Cox from “Orange in the New Black,” etc.) So again, I certainly wasn’t asking for “Tier 2 or 3 schools” as a way of DENIGRATING them; rather, just trying to make sure we have that “balanced list” that is so strongly advised! </p>
<p>Yes, I don’t think the math in some posts is accurate. While Otterbein does accept initially the number they wish to yield, most programs accept more than the spots available and so you have to look at how many they accept and how many audition to find an acceptance rate and not how many spots are available. Further, the math on Otterbein is off because the number of applicants includes all BFA applicants and NOT just the ones auditioning for MT. Further, you can’t use the number of girls accepted but then use the total number of applicants which include all genders (not to mention different majors). </p>
<p>Needless to say, most BFA in MT programs have acceptance rates in the single digits (under 10%). So, yes, does it really matter if one school accepts 8% and another accepts 5%? Both are extremely competitive odds. But again, you can’t ONLY look at acceptance rates to determine the competitiveness of a MT program. There are factors such as reputation and the strength of the applicant pool itself, and if they draw more of a national talent pool or more of a regional one and so forth. </p>
<p>I believe OVERALL it is harder to get into CMU and U of Michigan (merely two examples) than to Roosevelt and UArts. Now, there will be kids accepted at CMU and U of Michigan who were possibly rejected at Roosevelt and UArts (this is not an exact science!!!). However, there are many highly competitive applicants to CMU and U of Michigan who didn’t even apply to Roosevelt and UArts. </p>
<p>For me- one of the most interesting parts of reading the final decisions thread are looking at various schools where kids are accepted and decline. Virtually everyone get at least one “no” - and idea of the rhyme and reason (or lack thereof) is fascinating. SO much is subjective, SO much is how the kid was feeling that day! I know a kid who got a text at unifeds from her boyfriend of nearly a year telling her he had been cheating on her and was breaking up with her. She had 3 auditions scheduled that day- didn’t get in to any of those schools. She did get an acceptance from a school the day before, and one from a campus audition at another time. Coincidence- I don’t think so.</p>
<p>For an interesting perspective on all of this talk about college prestige, I’d steer you to this article featuring a good Q&A with agents from two big-name casting agencies – there’s lots of talk about whether college name alone is important; whether kids who skip college altogether have a shot (yes, if you are a WOW performer, no, if you have no audition skills–something kids absolutely work on in a BFA program), and whether program name alone influences who gets an agent. <a href=“Does College Name Prestige Matter for Actors? | HuffPost College”>HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost; The bottom line here (and it almost sounds so simple that it’s ridiculous – but those of us on the other side of college auditions know it to be true) is: “Look for the program that’s right for you, above all else. It’s really about your training and preparation. Once you arrive on the professional scene, the cream tends to rise, regardless of what school you attended.” I’d argue that what’s “right for you” (and your family) is so subjective that it is unquantifiable, despite our exhaustive efforts here on CC. For my kids, that ideal changed during the college audition process, and finances/scholarships absolutely played into it, whether we liked it or not. It also came down to connecting with people who took a genuine interest in them and their career development. So the same advice stands – cast as wide a net as your finances and schedule allow, and then see where the chips fall. Remember, there are creative, happy, talented kids at programs all over the country doing great work. PS - I’d argue that what BFA MT programs do best of all is train kids to audition competitively. Well-trained kids come out with a really strong book (all those MT repertoire classes); vocal training and technique to survive an 8-show-a-week schedule for an extended period; dance training to at least survive if not shine in a rigorous professional dance call; and most importantly knowing and maximizing their castable types, and how those types may change as they age. </p>
<p>I knew my post would look strange later. College B took 90 to net 50. But I don’t have to worry about that because thanks to me and the length of that rambling post, any other readers with insomnia are now asleep.</p>
<p>I would caution everyone that CCPA Roosevelt is a moving target, and while it might once have been low-second tier, it seems to be getting more competitive every cycle. Just anecdotally, there were a lot more people on this board who didn’t get in last year than the year before, and also a fair number of candidates who were considering it along with very competitive schools. Also, I would say that if you do get in, the training is first rate and the kids work very consistently, mostly in Chicago, but both during their school years and afterwards. </p>
<p>toowonderful…I agree with your post #145. Truly, almost every single applicant, no matter how talented, gets some rejections in this highly competitive BFA in MT admissions process. I can give numerous examples of kids I know, who for instance, got into UMichigan but not Penn State, got into NYU/Tisch but not UArts, got into CCM but not Syracuse, got into NYU/Tisch but not Emerson and so on. </p>
<p>MTTwins in post #146…I firmly believe, as you do, that people can succeed at the highest levels in this field no matter which college (or even no college) that they attended! Where you went to school is not going to necessarily determine your success. It comes down to the person and cream rises, etc. and of course, a bunch of luck too. I am a strong believer in picking a college (that you are accepted to, of course) that best suits you and what you want in a college and where you can thrive and not to pick based on prestige. Fit is way more important. </p>
<p>Anyhow, I do think, however, that what actorparent is seeking is a valid question. In order to build a balanced list of schools, one has to balance the academic odds but also the artistic odds of admission. The latter is much harder to determine than the former, considering almost all BFA programs have very low acceptance rates. But I think there is a very very rough estimate one can make of which schools tend to be more competitive to get into than others, but that is not in any way foolproof because kids do get into what are considered some of the most renown programs and are rejected at ones that are not considered as such. Still, I do think overall, that certain programs tend to be harder to get into than some others, and not based on acceptance rate alone. And while people shy away from examples as to not offend anyone, I imagine most would agree with examples such as CCM is considered harder to get into than Millikin and CMU is considered harder to get into than Marymount Manhattan. Applicants need a balanced list. </p>
<p>@Jkellynh17 brings up an excellent point. Things change a lot from year to year. For example, I don’t think in the 4 years of reading CC that I’ve ever seen so much discussion about Baldwin Wallace. This year, everyone seems to be talking about it. I’m not sure if that is because something has changed, or if it has always been a great program that no poster happened to fly the flag here about. Now people are discussing it a lot and I’ll bet anything at least among the CC readership it will be on a greater percentage of people’s radar this application season. I know the year my daughter applied, people were barely just beginning to talk about TSU. A year later that school took off. Ditto to some extent with Rider. Even things as simple as a change in leadership, or a school getting the green light to offer in state tuition for MTs can shine a light on a lesser known program and build interest overnight, changing the competitive dynamic greatly. So can, at least in this community, an enthusiastic student or parent that posts regularly about their program. I know that I read the posts prior to my daughter applying and did research or actually visited a number of programs at schools I had never ever heard of because of that. That didn’t always lead to my daughter applying, but absolutely I looked. The power of the pen.</p>
<p>PS: I’d be embarrassed and hated if I ever admitted the list of audition schools that back in 2011, I sort of thought were safety-ish to the extent a BFA could be. Some of them are red hot here now. That was only 3 years ago. </p>
<p>I did not mean to imply Otterbein was not popular, well-respected, or in anyway anything less than a top notch program. To the contrary. It is my own (perhaps mistaken) reasoning that lead to that comment. Here it is: As I understand it, Michigan gets about 1100 MT applications. Of all the midwest area schools, UM and CCM are probably the most well-known. They take two. two and half times as many girls as Otterbein. (And I might add, even these schools I do believe to be better known than Otterbein outside MT circles – though I am learning most folks havent heard of any of these schools-- I continue to hear, when providing acquaintances Ds list of schools, “really” I would have thought “X” [insert school without a musical theatre program, like Juliard (sp?)or something!]. </p>
<p>For my D, her school list was already heavily weighted to the “reach” schools, and adding Otterbein, another midwestern reach school with arguably tougher odds than Baldwin Wallace and even CCM, we just thought that would be one to leave off her already too long list. I realize that the math/analysis may be faulty, but they only take 4 girls, and why add Otterbein when there are others that take twice as many, and are the same, or a better fit for D. </p>
<p>I was merely guessing that others may also be daunted by those admission numbers, and thus, like my D, would forgo application to Otterbein. Thus the surprise at 700 MT applicants. I could be completely, utterly, dead wrong. With so many kids applying to a number well into the double digits, I guess it is not at all impossible they have 700 MT applicants. But I would be surprised.</p>
<p>Oh, and @Halflokum I sooo liked your analysis! Like you say, “out is out” - if they are taking 4, whether you are number 6 on the list or number 400!</p>
<p>@Transmom I didn’t take it that way at all I just thought maybe you had some scoop from somewhere LOL I am more interested in validating the whole “last year was a record breaking year” for all schools rumor. </p>
<p>Another thought – my mom always says “ya gotta be in it to win it” and there’s a certain part of that at work here. We can debate if more kids are applying or if kids are applying to more schools – I think its a combination of both. Yes, you should apply to as many schools as your time and finances allow in order to cast the widest net possible; but you also have to know how “rejection-averse” your child is. (One hopes they’re already developing coping skills for this tough business, but they’re still young and this process is grueling.) Anyway, there’s been a lot of talk on here about Otterbein and not applying b/c of their small class size. But what if your kid is EXACTLY who Otterbein is looking for? And what if the Otterbein environment is what’s right for your kid? Having seen Dr. John lead a few workshops, I can only state how utterly impressed I am with him. So if the program/location intrigues you and you can fit in the audition and afford the application, why not try? There were some long-odds schools on my boys’ lists that we could have eliminated for that reason alone, but we applied because if the magical “we want you” call came, we still thought those programs could fit. In some ways, I think a rejection from an Otterbein, which only takes a few students, stings less than a rejection from a school that takes a bigger class. (Easy for me to say, right?!) But we’ve all hashed out here time and time again how acceptances and rejections from various school can be totally random and nonsensical. Just musing, I guess…I wish I had all the answers for everyone facing this process, but it really is so individual. (And I wish I’d understood that in the beginning…it would have save me a lot of time spent trying to figure out the system.) ;)</p>
<p>You also have to consider what is hot on CC or what appears to be more trending here does not necessarily reflect what is happening in the real world. We forgot that the parents/ students posting on CC are such a small % of the people that are actually auditioning, accepted and attending. I have been on CC for both the MT (Steinhardt) and Studio art forums for about 8 years. In that time, I have known of just a handful of parents/ students from NYU who have been active participants on CC and who were classmates or parents of classmates of either of my D’s. (And my D’s know students in the grades above and below them.) So you have to make sure not to make generalizations based on this small sample.</p>
<p>This thread is kind of cracking me up, because whenever anyone in my town (or at the high school where I work) asks me where my kid goes to school, I start by saying “You’ve never heard of it…” and I’m always right–nobody outside the small world of theater applicants has heard of Otterbein. I read about it on CC and suggested my son take a look when, back in his sophomore year of h.s., he wanted to visit schools. He liked the campus and quite accidentally ended up having a lengthy interview with the arts admissions coordinator, who told him they only took four boys a year for acting. She talked a lot about preparation and gave him a list of other places to consider. It was the single most helpful thing that happened to him (and me) during the application process. Daunted and fully aware of the long odds, we both left that interview feeling like somehow it was going to end up being the right place for him. That gut feeling, along with repeated visits to the 'bein (three more counting the on-site audition) was probably the biggest driving force in his whole audition cycle. Never in a million years did he, or WOULD he, suggest that he was more “talented” or qualified than the many, many other applicants for those 4 spots. (And yes, they only do make 4 initial phone calls per category.) But he DID think that it would be the perfect fit for him; and he has thrived and made real progress there as a person as well as an actor. When he graduates in 2017, he’ll have had great training, but equally importantly, he’ll have had the college experience that he needed. Here’s to the same happy outcome for all of your kids this year!</p>
<p>^ Yes!! Hardly dared to hope son would be accepted to Otterbein, and even sent the pre-screen to the school before the others because it was such a long shot and thought it wouldn’t hurt as much if a rejection followed. Son passed the pre-screen, auditioned for MT and got the call for Acting BFA and is now a freshman at Otterbein. Include a couple long shots if it isn’t too onerous, you never know!!</p>
For my kids, that ideal changed during the college audition process, and finances/scholarships absolutely played into it, whether we liked it or not. It also came down to connecting with people who took a genuine interest in them and their career development. So the same advice stands – cast as wide a net as your finances and schedule allow, and then see where the chips fall. Remember, there are creative, happy, talented kids at programs all over the country doing great work. PS - I’d argue that what BFA MT programs do best of all is train kids to audition competitively. Well-trained kids come out with a really strong book (all those MT repertoire classes); vocal training and technique to survive an 8-show-a-week schedule for an extended period; dance training to at least survive if not shine in a rigorous professional dance call; and most importantly knowing and maximizing their castable types, and how those types may change as they age. </p>
But we’ve all hashed out here time and time again how acceptances and rejections from various school can be totally random and nonsensical. Just musing, I guess…I wish I had all the answers for everyone facing this process, but it really is so individual. (And I wish I’d understood that in the beginning…it would have save me a lot of time spent trying to figure out the system.) ;)</p>