is the ivy really worth it?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>Hi guys,</p>

<p>I'm an 08 at Dartmouth applying to med school sometime next year. My parents and I have had this debate several times over. Is going to an Ivy really worth it in the end if people just look at your graduate school anyways?</p>

<p>I'll be starting my senior year this january, but I'm taking my year off because it would be really awk if I graduated when I was 19. </p>

<p>I guess its almost crunch time now for mcats and such, and I'm taking off this year to study for it. I guess I'm just frazzled now because my gpa is a 3.43 and I have two more quarters to pull it up to a 3.5, which is basically minimum for most med schools.</p>

<p>I dunno...I'm not sure the 150,000 Gs for Dartmouth was worth it....especially if I end up going to KU or a state school for med school. </p>

<p>What are other ivy leaguer premeds doing now?</p>

2

<p>1.) People don't "just" look at your grad school, although it is true that your most recent phase is usually the most important.</p>

<p>2.) I wouldn't call 3.5 a minimum for most med schools if the rest of your application is strong. If you're trying to use your GPA as a factor in your favor, then it has to be a 3.85 or so, but usually you just need to have it not be too large a liability, and 3.5 is certainly in that range.</p>

<p>3.) It may well be the case that you got a better education at Dartmouth, which will put you in a position to do well when you're in med school, as well as for... well, life generally. On the other hand, just because it's Dartmouth doesn't mean you learn well (I have no idea), so that's a question only you can answer.</p>

<p>4.) With that said, you're already there anyway... may as well make the most of it and use the advantages that smaller private schools supply.</p>

<p>5.) If you'll pardon a few liberties with my following story:</p>

<p>A kid I knew in high school is immensely more talented than me in most ways. He's a national-level musician (I have no EC talents), brilliant kid (noticeably outscored me on the SATs), and has social skills that put mine to shame.</p>

<p>When time came to choose colleges, he chose a large local state school - a very well regarded one - and I chose to cross the country to go to a smaller private school. In our circles, my school was actually less reputable than his, so people were always shocked to hear that I turned down a full ride from said state school to attend mine (Duke). In fact, it was widely assumed that I had been rejected from most of the public schools in my state.</p>

<p>Once in college, he attended a strongly grade deflated school and got very strong grades, straight A's with one B in an advanced physics class. I attended a school with a reputation (mostly justified, in my opinion) for grade inflation and promptly received a C in organic chemistry, which was followed by multiple B's in important science classes. I outperformed him on the MCAT, but by less than 3 percentile points.</p>

<p>I was admitted to my top choice medical school as well as five very well regarded others. In fact, I was offered a nearly full tuition scholarship at one of them.</p>

<p>He is applying to medical schools for the third time. Each of his first two times, he was soundly rejected by every single school he applied to, very rarely (if at all) even being invited to interviews.</p>

<p>It is of course a very complicated story. My point is that you should not underestimate the importance of the access you have going to a smaller school, as well as the importance of the quality advising that is often devastatingly absent from public schools. I am not telling you that my school's "name branding" carried me. I'm speaking to opportunities, access, letters of recommendation, and, most importantly, advising.</p>

3

<p>interesting...</p>

4

<p>"I dunno...I'm not sure the 150,000 Gs for Dartmouth was worth it....especially if I end up going to KU or a state school for med school."</p>

<p>So what? There are plenty of kids who don't get into ANY med schools. If I get into med school, I would consider it a success.</p>

5

<p>Wow....bdm, that almost made me shed a tear.</p>

6

<p>Just to satisfy my own curiousity, BDM, what was wrong with the guy's app?</p>

7

<p>Lots of things. Applying late and incorrectly picking schools - an easy mistake to make - are the only two I know for sure.</p>

<p>To extrapolate: No access to research opportunities. Didn't understand that clinical experience was important. No academic hospitals are nearby. Being a large state school, probably could not get reasonable letters of recommendation. No chance to practice interviews, no idea of what to expect and no guidance on stupid things not to do/say.</p>

<p>He has decided to apply exclusively to MD/PhD programs from now on. I think he's decided they're easier to get into, which is ridiculous.</p>

<p>**One of my good friends went to this same large state school, leaned heavily on *my premed advisor's website, and was admitted to a very selective MD/PhD program. So please don't read that it's impossible to do well from a state school. But my point is that students from these places often lack the savvy and access that is a crucial component of the process.</p>

8

<p>Don't know what difference it makes since you are almost through, but in reality, it is only worth it if the private school offers something the public does not. That could be a specilty program, smaller classes, more research opportunities, better advisement and assistance with shadowing docs, ect.... - or the public school could offer all those things and more. Depends.</p>

9

<p>divagurl1130, did you do some research or clinic stuff during in Dartmouth?</p>

10

<p>of course. I started doing research when I was 14. I had my first paper published when I was 16. I've been on 3 research projects in immunology, biochem and engineering since I've been at D. I'm even Miss New Hampshire 2006. </p>

<p>My parents are both doctors and my dad interview people for med school, and he knows what he looks for in applicants and gpa is a large part of it.
I'm just saying that I'm scared that med schools wont look at apps that are below there gpa cut off, whatever that is, and if they adjust gpas depending on the school. The average gpa at Dartmouth is a 3.28, and I don't know that many premeds here with over a 3.6, which freaks everyone out especially when they see the mean is a 3.8 for martriculants.</p>

11

<p>If Dartmouth's mean GPA for matriculants is a 3.8, then I do think that's a worrisome sign. Even MIT, one of the highest I've ever seen, only has a 3.7.</p>

<p>With that said, I don't know any schools in the country that use a firm cutoff. They'll always be willing to make exceptions if your track record is strong enough.</p>

<p>And Miss NH 2006 doesn't seem to have gone to Dartmouth, at least as far as Google could tell me.</p>

12

<p>Come back to us when you have an MCAT score. a 3.4-3.5 is hardly a deal breaker if you have a 30+ MCAT score, go to an Ivy League college, and have loads of research experience.</p>

13

<p>America's National Sweetheart Pageant (ANTSO)
Nationals results (Top 4):
1)Texas-winner
2)Oklahoma-1st runner up
3)New Jersey- 2nd Runner up
4)New Hampshire-3rd Runner Up
Miss Academic Achievement 2007 for nationals</p>

<p>Miss New Hampshire SW 2006
Miss NH National Teenager 1st Runner Up 2006
Miss Academic Achievement 2006 for states
Miss Meadowbrook Runner Up 2006
Miss New Hampshire Teen USA 2nd RU 2006 competed against 2,000 applicants in the state and 60 competitors</p>

<p>but anyways...this doesn't really matter cause it doesn't apply to medicine</p>

14

<p>norcalguy</p>

<p>you're right. I'm just not gonna freak out about it now and maybe talk to career services at dartmouth for their advice.</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
The average gpa at Dartmouth is a 3.28

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hey, that's a lot higher than the GPA's at a lot of other schools. Just think what would happen if you were going to, say, Caltech. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I dunno...I'm not sure the 150,000 Gs for Dartmouth was worth it....especially if I end up going to KU or a state school for med school

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I have to agree with norcalguy and ask what exactly is so bad about going to a state med-school? Hey, at least you got in. When you consider the fact that over half of all people who apply to med-school don't get into ANY med-schools that they apply to, and that plenty more people who would like to go to med-school don't even apply because they know they won't get in anywhere, going to a state med-school should be seen as a relative victory.</p>

16

<p>ok, but the only reason i'd be going to KU Medical school is because my dad is on board of directors there. There's nothing wrong with a state medical school. My parents are concerned because they spent all this money on Dartmouth these last three years, when I could've just gone to KU med school if I went to college instate somewhere. I'm Asian, it's a money issue. The economics behind spending $47,000 a year for a 3.43 doesn't make sense to them. I am trying to explain to that Dartmouth isn't exactly the easiest school to make an A in. I'm also concerned about med school looking at my age questionably. I'm not sure they are going to let some 18 or 19 year old person in, when a 23 year old or 24 year old is much more "wise" in their years.</p>

17

<p>Going to a state med-school should be seen as a victory, period. Nothing relative about it. There are no bad medical schools in the US.</p>

<p>You do NOT need a 3.5 to get in. There are lots of people in medical school who were below 3.5, and most of them had nothing close to the research background you describe. </p>

<p>A decent (not spectacular) MCAT, preferably over 30 as noted above, and you should be in good shape. True, it is a different story if you have your heart set on Harvard, but that is a silly standard to which to subject yourself.</p>

<p>I would ask your first question differently. Did you get a good education? Did you learn more about yourself, your interests, abilities, and goals? Did you make good friends? Did you enjoy yourself? If so, then it was worth it. </p>

<p>If the only thing you get out of college is professional school admission, then it is almost impossible for an expensive private school to be worth the money. For a few people, they will do so much better with the greater attention that they do much better in subsequent admssions than they might coming from a large state college. Otherwise, on a purely admissions basis, it is hard for the private to compete. </p>

<p>But that is so not the point. The rest of your life will find your intellectual energy consumed by medicine. Most of your brain stimulation about other things gets launched in college. Much of what you learn might not make you a better doctor, but you will lead a richer life because of it.</p>

18

<p>If you must convince your parents from a purely concrete point of view - and I am supplementing afan's (very wonderful) last post, not correcting it - then:</p>

<p>Just as medical school is more important than undergrad, so your residency is
more important than your medical school.</p>

<p>Your success in medical school helps determine your residency placement.</p>

<p>Preparation at a strong educational institution helps you excel in medical school.</p>

<p>Did Dartmouth help you get into a better medical school? Perhaps - I tend to think it's helpful although not game-changing. But at the least, I think you should ask yourself whether you think Dartmouth prepared you well for medical school.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
ok, but the only reason i'd be going to KU Medical school is because my dad is on board of directors there. There's nothing wrong with a state medical school. My parents are concerned because they spent all this money on Dartmouth these last three years, when I could've just gone to KU med school if I went to college instate somewhere.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I still question this basic assumption that you would have gotten into KU med school if you had just went to college instate. What if you didn't? I'm quite certain there are plenty of people in your state who go to in-state schools, apply to KU Med, and don't get in, and wouldn't get in even if their fathers were on the board. </p>

<p>I think I have to back up afan here and say that if money is really the issue, then don't go to Dartmouth. And don't go to your instate school either. Instead, go to whatever school is willing to give you a full ride + stipend, even if it's a no-name 4th tier school. Because there are lots of these lower-tier schools out there, I'm sure you would have found at least one of them who would have given you a full ride.</p>

20

<p>Medical schools certainly do accept people who are as young as you are, and they certainly recognize that you attended college at an age most kids would be in high school. On the other hand, taking time off, working in something that will polish your application, and applying when you are closer to a typical age could work in your favor. </p>

<p>First, I hesitate to bring this up, but how sure are you that this is what you want to do with your life? As you note, most people are considerably older when they take the step of applying.</p>

<p>Second, if you want to do clinical work, as opposed to research, medical schools, rightly or wrongly, will count your young age against you. For research, they care about your grades, a little, and your previous research sucess, a lot. Age will not be a problem. So if you have good research credentials, then you will find a better chance of admission from a research oriented school. The handful of top elites may still be a problem (they have applicants with strong research backgrounds AND high grades), but if you go just below this level you may be better off than you think.</p>

<p>If you really do not want to go to KU, then consider getting even stronger research credentials, perhaps with a masters degree, working for a few years, and do some things to show how mature you are. Since many people who graduate high school at 18 take a few years off before heading to medical school, you could spend 2-3 years getting more experience, polishing your application to a bright sheen, and still be years ahead of most.</p>

<p>A similar approach, that will not require grad school ruition, is to work in a research lab, find a professor who understands your goals and will encourage you to be a scientific contributor. you can earn some money, get a close look at the research life, perhaps take some time to see medicine on your own (i.e. not through your parents' eyes). When you apply, medical schools will see a mature young women with good grades from a top college, impressive research experience, and a clear idea of where she is going and why.</p>

<p>If you are more interested in clinical work, consider the same strategy, but getting a job working in a clinical arena. It is a little more difficult to get responsible work without more credentials. But med schools love practical experience. Being an EMS technician, or a nurse tells them that you really know what health care is about.</p>