Is this a gap year?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>Thanks guys. While I know what ya’ll are saying, making my son see it is entirely different! lol
One of the places I constantly bring up to him is Catawba, which has been suggested before on here. I see a lot of promise there, but… he doesn’t always listen to me.
I’m certainly going to stress everything you all are saying. One thing in my favor is that he is generally really cautious with money. That was the reason he initially almost opted for Lamont/Denver.
He also has said that if the money just isn’t there, he will consider who gives him the best package. And half of his goal is recording/mixing, so he isn’t putting all his eggs in one basket! lol </p>

<p>And I’m sorry to anyone who thought he or I were being “snobby” about state schools. We just come from a realllllllllly bad state and especially a bad area in that state, so our state schools are not the same as anyone here. We definitely know that teachers at state schools are not “losers” — the ones near us ARE, though. Sorry, but they truly truly are. Some of them can’t even play as well as I can, and I haven’t played professionally in about 15 years. I know my attitude might be bad, but if you knew where we were…
But other states, yeah, we know there are some awesome teachers. So he’d still have to pay out of state for anywhere he went, so his thinking was if he was going to do that, he might as well shoot for the moon. I have reminded him as well that he already has some great connections and as long as he maintains those, it shouldn’t matter much where he goes.
I guess what it all comes down to for me, is I have failed him. I can’t afford to send him to the place he feels would fit him best.</p>

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<p>You all have given him lots to think about. I shared much of this just now. So now our question becomes, if he doesn’t get enough $ for Berklee, and he does a different school (like a state school), how much academics would he have to do as a music major? He was a great student, but he really wants to just be done with all that.
He would want to find a school for recording as well as performing, too. I know we won’t be able to satisfy every one of his needs and wants… ah, the perfect school! lol
You know the one: a conservatory experience in a town like NY or LA, etc, where he could gig/network, that offers full or nearly full scholarships to a jazz/contemporary guitarist. :smiley: (What do you mean, it doesn’t exist!? - ha)</p>

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<p>Shelly, you certainly didn’t fail him… You have obviously been a strong supporter and cheerleader for him. Your job is to produce a young man who can use the skills you’ve taught him to be a good man, father and citizen not to pay for an expensive and unaffordable school. I and I am certain other parents have felt bad that they couldn’t afford to send their child to the perfect school but learning about financial limitations is a step in becoming an adult. Far better that he find out now than after he has committed to crushing debt. He is obviously talented so I am sure he will fulfill his dreams following a different path.</p>

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<p>Dear shellybean,
After reading your last 2 posts, I worry that I came across much more harshly than I felt. I was just attempting to give you advice that I happen to feel very strongly about. That is, I feel strongly, not harshly! I just think it’s really unwise to take on student debt, particularly as a music major, and I wanted to encourage you to consider my viewpoint and to encourage your son to consider it, too. I am not – and was not – feeling any harsh judgment against you or against him!</p>

<p>I definitely don’t think you’ve failed your son. As Momofbassist said, you seem to be a strong supporter and cheerleader for him. That’s admirable! It seems to me that most of us can’t afford to send our kids to the places that they most want to go. My son did not get to go to his first choice conservatory for undergrad, and he didn’t get to go to his first choice conservatory for grad school. I couldn’t afford them. That’s just the way it goes. If I had blithely encouraged him to attend either one of them, he would have a gigantic mountain of debt! And, in that way I would have failed him!</p>

<p>I do think (based on what you said) that he may be misguided about state schools, about the ability to exchange “dream school” debt for “future success,” and about the very negative consequences of taking on student debt, in general.</p>

<p>In re-reading what I wrote, I guess I can see why you might have thought I was calling you a snob about state schools. But, I promise … I really wasn’t thinking harshly like that! I was just thinking, based on what you said, that your son is being somewhat naive. And you (like me with my own son, incidentally) seem to give him a lot of credit for the way he thinks. Which can be great. But it sounds to me like, in this situation, he may be thinking incorrectly. I wasn’t thinking he’s stupid or snobby or a spendthrift. Promise! I was just thinking that he may be young, naive, and “ignorant” of some of the facts and some of the consequences. And that you may be giving him a little too much credit and leeway in this decision (which I’ve been known to do with my own son).</p>

<p>I believe you that, wherever you are, you may have some really lousy state schools. But you know that not all state schools are lousy. :wink: (I don’t think that your attitude is bad either, btw.)</p>

<p>Regarding state schools, part of my point was to emphasize that many state schools give full-tuition or nearly full-tuition scholarships, even to out-of-state students. For example, UNT gives in-state rates to all out-of-state students who earn (is it?) at least $1000 in scholarships. There are other state schools scattered across the country with similar rules. There are also state schools that give in-state tuition to bordering states’ residents who meet certain criteria. So, if I were him (or you), I would first try to locate all the state schools that specialize in “his thing,” then I would go to those schools’ music, financial aid, and scholarship pages to find out if they have any special deals for out-of-state students. If you find a state school that really seems to fit what he’s looking for, but you can’t find the kind of financial aid “good news” you’re looking for, you could always call the FA or music office to inquire within.</p>

<p>I know you mentioned that he’s not interested in UNT, but just as an example, if he were to earn just $1000 in scholarships there (not too hard to do since he sounds like a good student with a lot of talent), then he would automatically get In-State rates! And, if he’s super talented and really bright, he could possibly earn nearly full-tuition there. (One of my kids did years ago.) I don’t have a guitarist or jazz or contemporary artist in my family, so I can’t really speak to any schools that specialize in such. But I do have first-hand experience with other state schools that offer full-tuition for other specialties. Arizona, Colorado, and Alabama all offered full-tuition to nearly free-rides to my kids for various things (we are not residents of either of those states). Granted, your kid has to really bring something to the table – something the schools want and are willing to pay for – but maybe he can do that, based on what you’ve said!</p>

<p>It sounds like neither he nor you were aware that these things ARE possible with state schools.</p>

<p>Another great things about a lot of state schools is that many of them tend to accept more AP credits for core curriculum classes than private LAC’s or conservatories. To my knowledge, though, it is true that the vast majority of state schools, if not all state schools, require a well-rounded core curriculum of classes. That means, as you and he guessed, he’d likely have to complete a core of math, science, English, fitness, and history classes – minus those classes for which he could earn AP or CLEP test credit.</p>

<p>Btw, there are also lots of LAC’s that likewise offer very large scholarships to students who are highly talented and/or academically gifted. Maybe he should look for some of those as well.</p>

<p>So, the trick is to (1) find all those schools that offer your son’s specialty (I am guessing that this will be a much shorter list than if he were, say, a voice major or a violin major), (2) narrow that list to those that will “fit” him (be open-minded and “generous” with this step!), and then (3) research those schools’ web pages to discover which of them might work out to be financially possible. If your son is extraordinarily talented, he will very likely have some good fortune with this method. </p>

<p>Incidentally, we have found that the more “off the beaten path” the school is, the more likely he’ll be paid to attend. So, don’t shy away from small, lesser known, or less prestigious schools at this stage of the game, unless they truly don’t “fit” him or unless their programs and/or faculty truly have no redeeming value for him. Don’t shy away from state schools either. That’s not to say that he has to apply to each school he finds – but, imo, he should be very open-minded when initially creating this list. He can always narrow it down from there. </p>

<p>It makes sense that the most prestigious music schools in the country are less likely to pay for their students – they may have students beating down their doors who are willing and able to pay their asking prices. The schools that are “less obvious,” but still very good in their fields, may be more willing to pay your son for his talent! He can still apply to the most prestigious schools – but he would be wise to apply to some of the less prestigious (but still good) schools as well.</p>

<p>Imo, he should have at least one, preferably 2, or even 3, schools on his list that appear to be good matches AND financially likely without large student debt. That’s the way that each of my kids approached their undergraduate searches, and each made out with great success. I hope your son finds similar success this next time around!</p>

<p>Wishing you and your son all my best, shellybean! I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings or offended you in any way. :)</p>

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<p>shellybean, it looks like you have two questions in your last post.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>State schools. I agree that there are a number of state schools where you would not want to send a serious musician. On the other hand, there are a number where you could, and some give out big scholarships. for jazz, the one I always hear about in the University of North Texas. My daughter’s first (jazz) sax teacher went there, and he raves about it.</p></li>
<li><p>What and how many academic courses are required in order to get the music degree? My daughter had this same question, as she didn’t want to take a lot of academic courses. (However she ended up choosing one of the more academic schools anyway). What I’ve found is that even conservatories require 6-8 “general ed” type courses. I couldn’t find a difference actually between conservatories and other schools on this issue. Probably the non-degree schools will not require taking general education classes. I know that the Longy School of Music in Cambridge MA does not require any outside courses. You should start a new thread on this question and you would get many responses.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>I agree with most of the posters so far. I think your son should spend his gap year researching schools so that he has a back-up if Berklee doesn’t come through with the scholarship money. My S currently sings with a jazz band with professional musicians, all in their 40’s or 50’s (so things may have changed), but they attended UNT (guitar and sax), Louisiana Tech (bass who is also professor of tuba at a selective university) and University of Miami (drums). These guys are excellent musicians with lots of experience over their careers. They were great in advising my son for college (even though he’s pursuing classical voice). Their two pieces of advice: 1) don’t go into debt and 2) get a music ed degree. He’s following #1 but not #2 :wink: Has your son asked musicians he admired for their advice? It might be similar.</p>

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<p>^And U of Miami tends to give good scholarships to their top talent, too.</p>

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<p>Unless the student musician is already functioning as a professional musician at a level that almost guarantees a solid future, it is short sighted to minimize the academics. Parents who are providing the financial backing can consider that requiring ongoing education, not just training, is in the same spirit as making your offspring take their medicine. General education and core curriculum requirements are important for us all as citizens of the world, as well as giving a head start on any change of heart and plan.</p>

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<p>Just wanted to say that my son went to a private HS with very well known arts/music/jazz programs that send kids to many great music college programs. The director of his HS jazz program went to UNT, and that is a school that came up time and again when my son was considering where to apply. Very respected program and a great deal because of the in-state tuition for scholarship kids thing.</p>

<p>Just curious… is Denver/Lamont still an option? My son has a friend who is very happy there (drummer), and about to graduate. </p>

<p>And did your son apply to Belmont? Forgive me if this has been discussed.</p>

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<p>SimpleLife, you don’t need to at all apologize. You weren’t too harsh. I just usually don’t explain myself well and I wanted you to know we weren’t calling state professors losers. One of our favorite teachers, a professional musician, taught at Coastal Carolina and if he were still there, we would have kept that on the list (for example). I was just feeling really bad that my post seemed to suggest we thought he was “above all that”.
I spent a long time researching again last night and looked at every place suggested to me and to others on CC who’d asked about contemporary music. And we’ve got several back on the list. And now that UNT has been mentioned again, I think it’s time to definitely give them another very serious look. As well as Miami. S does have working musician friends in Miami so maybe…And now that he did so well with the jazz auditions, he’s feeling much better about including jazz programs and not limiting himself to contemporary.
Which leads me to your question, jazz/shreddermom — he told the prof. at Lamont that he was auditioning again this year. This time we will be going to Denver to do the audition – they had already told us primary scholarship consideration would go to those students, not the DVD submissions which we had to do.
And Belmont… we talked to a rep. who I think completely misrepresented the school. S asked if he would be able to do perfomance WITH recording and he was told no. That crossed them off the list for S. But I think the rep may have been wrong. I can’t think why in the world Belmont would make the two tracks completely separate, with no overlap at all. In Nashville??? Most colleges even outside of a music city like that let students combine recording with performance these days, especially. I think he needs to talk to them again.
So thank you to everyone for all your help. S and I have talked over everything that ya’ll have said and we are formulating a new plan!! Berklee is still top of his list and right with them is Denver/Lamont. But, as far as finances will allow, we will be pursuing USC, UNT, and Miami and probably Belmont. The UNT inschool deal sounds like it would help us quite a bit.
Thank you thank you thank you to you all!</p>

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<p>Shellybean, it may have been the way the question was asked (at Belmont). Perhaps there is no official “double major,” but that isn’t necessary. My son is not double-majoring w/recording. He’s just using most or all of his electives there. And mixing/recording for all his friends, word of mouth leading to word of mouth, gaining quite a reputation very quickly, impressing his profs, etc. Based on all that, he was one of a few students recommended for a weekend workshop with a Grammy award winning producer. Remember, these are not fields that require “credentials.” Only exposure. </p>

<p>What’s important is looking at the curriculum and seeing how much “elective” room there is, and then knowing what courses in the additional area are available. This can be seen in the major requirement list and course listings. Had my son stayed in the studio/jazz major at USC (he moved to Pop second semester), he would have had NO ROOM for those electives. So those are the questions he needs to ask. </p>

<p>(Although if my son were to read this, he would remind he that he’s learned a huge percentage of this stuff on his own, outside of class, which he claims is using outdated software they will soon switch from to what my son prefers. And I don’t doubt him.)</p>

<p>I hope that helps.</p>

<p>So your son was accepted to Denver/Lamont, but no scholarship? Makes sense to audition in person. I’ve heard of good scholarships there that way, including my son’s drummer friend.</p>

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<p>That makes a lot of sense – I know he would probably get a lot of experience outside of normal class. He needs to look at the catalogs closely.
As far as Denver/Lamont, he did get a very good scholarship (music and academic). But he was told beforehand that the dvd would not get him as much. So he is wondering how much more he would’ve gotten — and he feels it would probably have been very worth the trip!
He was actually stunned that he got as much as he did (and how much more there — in JAZZ which isn’t his usual fare – than at Berklee.) It made him feel very good that his jazz efforts were recognized as he’s not studied with anyone. Anyway, even with a good scholarship, Denver was still out of our price range. I was very surprised that everything considered Denver is more expensive than Berklee. Total is around 60000 and Berklee is closer to 52. I guess I’d been thinking Denver was more of a state school. I clearly hadn’t done my homework!</p>

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<p>Shellybean, I think the gap year may be great in many ways, then. Not only will you have more time to catch up on “homework,” both tuition and course range/availability at various schools, but your son will get some second cracks at auditions and scholarships, as a year-older-more-mature musician.</p>

<p>But I also want to tell you that if jazz isn’t where your son’s true interests lie, be wary of jazz-only or jazz-dominated programs. My son loves and studied jazz for years. In fact, I think it’s what made him a great musician - it’s definitely an amazing foundation to have. But it was never his true passion, and he realized very quickly it was not where he wanted to spend his life. I think a huge part of his drive for becoming accomplished in jazz was this was sort of the “only” way to be a “serous musician” in HS. He has found though that in college, at least at with the right program, and in the real world, there are far more opportunities outside of jazz. He is beyond grateful he didn’t choose one of his college options that only offered jazz (like NYU, for example). Had he done so, I believe he’d no longer be in college. So many things have changed for him since he was in HS (beyond switching from Studio/jazz guitar to Popular Music.</p>

<p>My point is, this gap year could be the best thing that could’ve happened Take a deep breath (as I think you are), and soon you’ll see nothing but positives.</p>

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<p>My son was accepted to Berklee in June 2011 – and then we realized there was np financial aid involved (other than loans). His other option at that late date was an OOS public school . . . which also provided no financial aid.</p>

<p>He still wanted to go to Berklee, and he deferred first for one semester, and then for another semester, so he didn’t start there until fall of 2012.</p>

<p>So what did he do? He woked 30 hours a week delivering sandwiches, which ALMOST covered his room and board at Berklee for the year (living off campus . . . living on campus would have been thousands of dollars more for the year).</p>

<p>He also continued hos music lessons; played in an orchestra; taught cello privately ro a couple of students; and composed composed composed.</p>

<p>He has an OK year at Berklee, although between Hurricane Sandy, the winter blizzard and the marathon bombing the school was closed for two weeks of classes, making an already expensive school VERY expensive.</p>

<p>He also was less then thrilled with the attitude of a lot of his classmates . . . he had struggled to make it there and stay there and he knew a lot of people who just didn’t seem to care, which drove down the quality level of a lot of classes.</p>

<p>The gap year also gave him an education in money and the value of things that he wouldn’t have had if he just went off to school.</p>

<p>He’s transferring for the 2013-2014 school year, thoguh the final destination isn’t final yet.</p>

<p>Also, a few months ago, Berklee announced it was increasing its financial aid, but it was targeting the new aid to students closer to graduation, not to freshman.</p>

<p>There was a recent story about Paent PLUS loans in which Berklee was number 2 on the list of schools whose students/families with the highest average amount of PP loans upon graduation.</p>

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<p>Thanks guys for the perspectives.
Right now it looks like we’re going to research and broaden our search, while keeping his ultimate goal of Berklee. He feels positive just to have been accepted. He’ll re-audition for scholarship and this time not do a regional audition. Then let the chips or money fall where they may.
Meanwhile, he’s going to pick a couple of other schools and audition. One of which is almost definitely going to be UNT. The others we’re not so sure. He got such a great offer from Denver, yet it was still only half and he doesn’t want much debt for anything other than Berklee (and not Berklee so much anymore - lol) So we are thinking possibly Thornton, which seems like a great match but a financial long-shot.
So thank you for all the great advice and experience. I can’t wait till all this is done and I can pay it forward! I hope I can help future CCers as much as ya’ll have been helping me!</p>

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<p>shellybean - with UNT you have to apply to both the SOM and the university. A bit of a pain but the SOM iis a very good school, and indeed, a major value for a top notch music education. Also some schalorships you are automatically considered for, others you must apply seperately. Good luck!</p>