<p>Was typing too fast - should have been "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs..."</p>
<p>'Can you imagine if cars cost "as much as you can pay?"' - actually, in a sense, this is not far from what happens...you can choose to buy a Kia...or a Lamborghini...and I don't think there is too much negotiation for the latter...</p>
<p>But we are not talking about cars. We are talking about education, more incentive needs to be introduced in order to get the lower and lower-middle class back into our economy. Uneducated poor people are a burden on society. We have to look at things from the outside, not from our own personal perspectives.</p>
<p>^^ Similarly, you can choose to a prestigious school or to a community college. The negotiation on the part of the prestigious school (meaning financial aid) only allows it to raise its prices even higher, which means that students from backgrounds that "can pay" will pay - for a VERY LONG TIME, while the school can look generous by giving free rides to students who are struggling to make ends meet. After a certain threshold, it is really impossible to say "Oh, you can pay This much." It would make more sense, therefore, to say, "We expect a student attending our school to make X dollars / year while in school, and Y dollars / year after graduation, Z of which we expect the student to be paying in loans for W years. So, our overall cost is going to be 4x + ZW" because then, EVERYBODY suffers the same amount, and if you don't want to suffer taht cost, you can go to a school that has lower expectations for X, Z and W. (which, it would make sense for prestigious colelge to expect graduates to make more than community colleges, and thus to have higher values for those numbers, if only because prestigious college might expect the value of its education to be better)</p>
<p>"For example, if students are eligible for free or reduced lunches in IN they are eligible. They must maintain a minimum GPA in high school and middle school and agree to abide by a code of conduct."</p>
<p>My bad for not knowing all of the facts but...
the minimum gpa is a 2.0 and once you qualify and register for the program and your parents income changes after you qualify (which we did in like 7th grade) you still qualify for the program</p>
<p>Do you know how easy it is to qualify for free or reduced lunch? All you have to do is fill out a form, and I know families that like to just fill out that form because they don't ever get into trouble. I'm not saying that its just as easy for 21st Century scholars.</p>
<p>I hoped people will stop concentrating on the "OP" so much :). I put a thread with a lame title, and it seems like I opened Pandora's Box. Anyway thank you for those who said some nice stuff bout me. And to those who said some not so nice stuff, it is okay. No hard feelings. I really suck at arguing. </p>
<p>Anyway, to those who seem so interested, I stalked tht school tht I got in, their fin aid department with so much emails and calls begging to meet my need, they are avoiding me now. And if u want to know, I am no lazy student not prepared to work my way through college. I been doing it and will work more harder of course. I just applied to Berea College this week (was not gonna reveal more but I hate personal info floating in cyber space), but my chance is tough I could not get an additional pastor's letter. I been avoiding church for a long time.
Another thing is I am not saying biased against any rich kid. I am talking about those select ones who really have parents fully able and prepared to contribute to their education and so shouldn't they utilize this avenue first? If truly it is difficult beyond their means, then they should look at merit scholarships of course.
I am not talking about people with a house to lose or too many kids college aged. Or kids with parents who simply don't want to help out. Not everyone is passionate bout education like a CC parent.
An anyway everyone deserves a quality education. I am saying if we act in a socially responsible way toward another when the decision comes down to accessing those scholarship funds, every will get an equal chance equal to his or her merit. Parents should think about other students as well and think if really they have to money to spend on 40000 holidays abroad, education is a much more noble intent yes?
If one really has the additional means, then let it go the education first so others with equal merit may get a shot at a decent education.
I am looking at a tough time myself, I am planning grad school one day, and I know I am in it alone. My relatives say I have too much dreams beyond wht I deserve on the count of my finances. </p>
<p>I want to pose this theoretical question, if a kid with decent grades has parent working in public service or a lowly aid worker, and that parent really works hard, but isn't able to contribute to the kid's education, is the kid allowed to have idealistic dreams regarding college?</p>
<p>And who is rich is of course an arbitrary term. It depends on each and everyone's unique situation. I am just talking who consciously know they have more than enough means for their education, but still choose to access scholarships that might perhaps help another student who otherwise couldn't go to certain colleges, while this student can without burdening her parents despite the non-presence of aids.
I am talking about consciously making an ethical decision of course.</p>
<p>Parents don't work so hard. Take care of your health so children will have a support system always when times are tough (I know, going of topic).</p>
<p>@ lalaloo6</p>
<p>In response to your overtly socialist and disparaging remarks, I shall take them as they come.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why not charge everyone what they can afford? Because determining how much a family can afford is impossible, especially when "being able to
afford X" is such a subjective criteria (do you take into account location? what if noncustodial parent won't pay? how about people who are paying for vacation homes - they certainly "can't afford" the money that they're using for the home. etc...).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So, your idea is since the government/schools "cannot" discover how much families can afford for college, we should just scrap the system entirely. In addition, the factors which you bring up, save location, are actually questions on the FAFSA and the CSS. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Can you imagine if cars cost "as much as you can pay?" or HOUSES?? That would be ridiculous! It would be a way for any car company, or house-seller, etc., to take all of your money (or a high percentage of it), and say, well we've determined taht this is what you can afford. Hmm, kind of sounds a little bit like colleges asking for a very high percentage of one's income.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, that's any business' prerogative. You must remember that a university is a business at its core. Why would a business want to charge you less if they know you can or must pay more? Hence, the reason why bottled water is $2+ in Disneyland, $1+ from a vending machine, $1- from a super-market or $.50- from a bulk store.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you're rich and you can pay that much, that's great! If you're poor and you are just fighting to keep yourself above the line, that's great too, given current financial aid measures! But if you've got just enough money, above some arbitrary point, colleges have the power to take as much of it as they want, force you into debt, and call it "EFC." Sure, then you have a choice not to go to that college, etc.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well. What do you expect? Universities have to have some sort of breaking point. Sure, it sucks if you're caught there (I know I probably am), but on a whole, if your family really cannot afford the sticker price of a university, a university will probably have a rather large endowment. Of course, there are exceptions, but what are we going to do? Go back to Stanford's original plan of $0 tuition? That is not practical for any business.</p>
<p>And finally, the phrase which made me write this ridiculously long post:</p>
<p>
[quote]
But essentially, given the subjectivity and downright backwardness of making people "pay what they can", I propose that each college cost a constant, student-manageable (though perhaps with a lot of work) amount, and that the government + business ventures, etc. make up the difference in funding a school's activities. Is it a perfect solution? No, but it's a lot more objective + capitalist than the one currently in place.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Really? Having the government artificially stimulate the economy through subsidies in education which in turn improve one's resources and thereby increase opportunity to increase Consumption? That's your idea of capitalism?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Excuse me...my family has NOT always been upper-middle class, and we were pretty darn close to losing out house for a while. I know what it's like, mmmmkay?</p>
<p>Not to mention, you have no idea what my homelife is like. If my parents can't afford to send me to the school I'm going to, I can't go to school at all. It seems to me that you're the one that needs to grow up.</p>
<p>And I'm not "whining"...I'm just trying to explain why I'm in a upper-middle class family but I'm applying for aid. Maybe instead of attacking me (which by the way does not help your case but certainly makes you seem immature), YOU should be the ones "working harder".</p>
<p>And I would point out that no one necessarily owes YOU anything either, bartleby.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I was responding to the OP. If you would try reading, you would see I sympathize with the plight of upper-middle-class people like yourself.</p>
<p>Wow, I read the first 5 pages of this thread and am surprised at the number of negative reactions to the OP and her question. I'm also amazed that there are so many posters on here who had a perfectly positive and pragmatic attitude as young adults despite dire circumstances, have always worked extremely hard, have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps, whose wealth is due soley to their own upstanding character and work ethic, and who completely deserve everything they have acquired because they worked hard for it.</p>
<p>I do not deserve what I have like you all do. Good thing I've got less, or it wouldn't be fair.</p>
<p>^^ Well, what I mean is: money to educate undergraduates and fund research has to come from somewhere. So, if it REALLY costs 50K per person, have the government put money in education - it is one of the few true INVESTMENTS a government can make - and have a uniform cost. Or, make colleges cost $50 K for everyone - and I bet prestigious schools would quickly see that their demand goes down. But it's hardly capitalist that if my mom decided to stop working this year, I'd get a college education for free at a school that meets full need, whereas my mother went into debt to pay for grad school + my sister and I's education, and is now finding that she may not ever have a retirement (which , as mentioned above, many of the middle/high-income posters here have worked very hard to gain their incomes) In any case, both solutions require a bit of socialism, but the second idea seems more capitalist in that it <strong>protects private ownership</strong>.</p>
<p>Also, @TheGFG, unfortunately, very few people can pay the cost of tuition. Nobody is saying low-income students should have to pay more, but in fact, at full-need-met institutions, at this current state in time, people of low income have needs that are met, while people of higher incomes are expected to pay amounts that require extended difficulties. I have a friend whose EFC is $3000 - a student can pay that with a summer job! Whereas, it is very difficult to pay off an EFC that is 20K and thus 50% of a household's take-home income.</p>
<p>My parents make six figures (barely). They can not afford my full college expense b/c of a lack of savings and lifestyle expenses. I'm practically on my own in paying. Does that mean I shouldn't get aid? I can understand need-based (maybe), but I feel I'm at least entitled to merit aid...</p>
<p>As I repeated before, as anyone read my posts before start feeling defensive, my question are for students who genuinely have the funds to go college without burdening their parents. Not asking every kid rich on paper, but those who consciously know they can go to colleges without aid or putting pressure on their parents.
And I also feel this question does not apply to US only but other countries and citizens as well in a International context.
P.S. Since there seems to be some strong emotions stirred up, please try to keep a calm tone though since I don't want a thread in my name which the kooky moderator decided to feature to get banned.</p>
<p>I'm so sorry, bartleby...I must have misunderstood. :(</p>
<p>I think the system right now is as good as it gets.. </p>
<p>Im all for merit awards, but when you are in the best universities how can you determine who deserves the merit awards? I frankly believe everybody in i.e harvard deserves a merit award, but there is no way you can afford that. </p>
<p>Secondly, I who come from a poor city, and poor family cannot afford the same education as others can. You can buy SAT prep classes, attend better highschools and spend more time on hw and EC's, while some of us have to work to get by.</p>
<p>Finally lets say I do get into a private school. It means I have the same ability as the others who got accepted, but who has less money to attend. Is it not their right to award me more money because I need it more than others????? and last time I checked the University checks what your EFC is going to be, and alot of universities put the money to fill in the GAP.... and if they do not is it not the fault of the university for not offering more money, and not a whole debate whether or not poor people deserve aid....</p>
<p>Also IMO some of you guys who write nasty thing about others being rich or poor are immature, ignorant, clueless about life, irrational , and just plain malicious... Please grow up, because I truly believe bad people dont deserve anything in life..</p>
<p>Also I would like to add that the middle class does get the boot alot of times, but the middle class for one is so ambigious (at least the boundaries for it) everyone claims to be middle class, but like I have stated, blame the private school for not giving you money, because Pell grants and such do not cover anything at a private university.</p>
<p>It has been quite interesting to see how people think and reason, very interesting :). Bartleby and HisGraceFillsMe, cheers, I am not offended at all. I do feel I have worked hard though, but hey there is always space for improvement. I am a work in progress.
GCF, I agree people let strong emotions turn into maliciousness. Since this an educational forum, we should allow calmness to control our actions and verbalization.</p>
<p>I just noticed how a lot of the people are suggesting the OP to go to a state school. These same people complain about how unfair financial aid policies are and how they will go broke by sending their kids to college. Yet they would never send their kids to a state school.</p>
<p>what is fair exactly. I for one feel bad about asking for more money for a frat or more money for expensive text books because everything costs so much. there is a thought process that as long as the tuition is covered things are great. but there is the dorm or apt, the food plan, the books, the clothes, a occasional lunch out or just gas to get home or a plane ticket. </p>
<p>everyone that says appearances are deceiving really know what they are talking about. putting more than one in college at the same time is a real stress on a family and it makes you wish that you were the only one in college in your family. parents get very worried when the second and third want to rush or just apply to 12 schools. add in the dorm and the can i go to a concert and watch them frown and sweat.</p>
<p>The</a> Best Class Money Can Buy</p>
<p>So if everyone soooo interested in my lame thread, I just thought I put this article for those who feel they want sth to read instead of feeling they want to bash me. Honestly, I may be strong but I am not tht thick skinned to not let people's words get to me. I could not concentrate on anything since last night after reading this thread. But I will get over this today but some other students could not have handled this. And I have basically have not targeted any specific nick or person on CC. But people feel it is ok to make me a scapegoat.
The public school didn't give me the aid I needed, I kept knocking their door, even gave extra essays, but they are cold to me. Harased thm to neck with emails n calls. So tht is it. I Please don't keep talking about me like I am some kind of specimen. And the college didn't have the course I loved, but I preserved anyways to try.</p>
<p>Carnut, please read my previous posts. Please don't generalize wht I am saying. I am not talking about students like you. I am talking about honestly those wealthy kids who don't need the merit aid at all. Not the struggling middle class with several college aged kids or retirement nearing parents. </p>
<p>I give up. People will twist my words anyway. And feel they have found an avenue for their anger at my expense in this thread. I take my bow gracefully.
I am just to "laidback" to argue.</p>
<p>I am sorry. I did not mean to imply anything against you. just thinking out loud. and i know how you feel. a few have blasted me and it is hard to believe some of the respones you get on here. we are all in the same boat in many ways and it would be so much better if we were not so stressed about this process. again, i really did not mean anything wrong. i enjoyed your post and felt it gave me more to think about.</p>
<p>you have given us a lot to think about and debate. it is a very good thread and i thank you. we all have responded because the subject is close to us. even those of us with the income to provide sometimes wonder why it costs us so much and others so little so this debate has hit home to many. good reading.</p>
<p>SkyGirl,</p>
<p>Keep up the effort you have made so far. </p>
<p>Given your socioeconomic disadvantage, the fact that you have taken a daily 1-hour bus trip every day so that you can take AP courses, and have worked to help meet family expenses, with a 700 SAT average, I think you have an excellent shot at some superb universities, including the Ivies and top LACs. If they accept you, they will be committed to retaining you, including providing solid FA.</p>
<p>If you were to go to your state's flagship university, you should understand that a high-ability/hard-working student can get an excellent education. </p>
<p>For example, take honors freshman courses. </p>
<p>Learn as early as possible how to use the libraries, and access their treasure trove of knowledge. (If there is library orientation program, attend it. Ask librarians for help--that's what they're their for.)</p>
<p>Learn to write at a high level. Seek courses that assign essays and term papers, and that have blue book expository exams. </p>
<p>Suppose that you are assigned a term paper. Do it early. Take it to the prof during office hours, tell him/her it's a draft, and ask for editing guidance. The mere fact that you've completed it three weeks before the rest of the class will get his/her attention, and more often than not, you'll get help to polish that paper. </p>
<p>Attend office hours on a regular basis, particularly in your field(s) of greatest interest. Big universities can seem impersonal, but they are actually composed of small communities: what you want to do is to connect yourself with them.</p>
<p>If you have to hold down a job while attending school, this is a major burden. You'll have to forego some social activities: there are only so many hours in a week, and you have to delineate a schedule that enables you to excel academically. </p>
<p>In your first year, pick and choose courses in subjects that you find most interesting and inspiring, and leave uninteresting general ed courses for later, whenever this is possible. </p>
<p>In your first semester, it's not a bad idea to take 12 credit hours, and if you're working, this is particularly true. To do well requires at least 2 hours of study for every 1 hour of class, but actually often more. So 12 hours of class can generate 40 hours of work. </p>
<p>Taking advanced standing credit for 4s and 5s on AP tests is sound. But if you get 3s on AP tests, use these for credit only for general ed courses; otherwise forego the credit and take the courses, because a 3 is a C equivalent, so if you skip to the next course, you'll be at a disadvantage.</p>