Is this fair?

<p>Sky Girl, you do not need to defend your positions at all... People are just discussing different sides of a very emotional subject. It hits home to alot of people on this forum. Just as advice, you should try to grow some tougher skin bc people are always going to be malicious, but we all deal with them :)... So like I said, you can defend your position if you want, but do not take some of the attacks seriously. Your the only one who can judge yourself whether or not you truly deserve things. Also always remember no matter how bad your situation is, somebody else has a even steeper mountain to climb, and if they can climb it so can you :). </p>

<p>So I wish you luck skygirl, but seriously real life is harsh, and there will always be hate towards you and your opinions, so live learn and forget everyone else</p>

<p>I come from an upper middle class family, and I can tell you right now that that does NOT mean my parents can afford to pay for $50k/year for 4 years out of their pocket. Just because we have <em>some</em> money doesn't mean we can just throw $50k/year at college tuition. I got about ~$25k/year in financial aid from my university, and that was definitely necessary, and I seriously doubt that a low income student who couldn't afford to pay to attend the same school was/will be cheated out of attending because I got some money.</p>

<p>While your situation may be unique and I understand that you feel like you were cheated out of money that you should have received, no system is perfect, and there are always exceptions such as yours that the system cannot catch. I'm sorry to hear that your hopes to go to a good private school were shattered because you didn't receive financial aid, but sometimes you have to look past the things you can't control and focus on those that you can.</p>

<p>Check out this Newsweek article about the impact of elite colleges' expanding need-based financial aid for the middle class, which I'm also posting a separate thread about:</p>

<p>"Some applaud the middle-class college bailout. "For years top schools have been locked in an arms race, building lavish facilities for their students," says Richard Vedder, director of the Center for College Affordability and Productivity. "It's nice to see they are finally competing on price."</p>

<p>But economists say the effects may be far-reaching and not all together rosy. For starters, it will put pressure on flagship public schools, which traditionally educate some of the brightest, although not necessarily the richest, kids. Formerly, a high-achieving middle-class kid from Lansing, Mich., might get accepted at both Harvard and the University of Michigan but opt to stay in-state and graduate debt-free. Now it may be cheaper for that student to attend Harvard. University of Michigan spokeswoman Kelly Cunningham says the school is monitoring the developments. "We'll probably know the effects over the next few years, as prospective students identify and respond to these opportunities," she told NEWSWEEK in an e-mail. John Blackburn, dean of admissions at the University of Virginia, says the new policies at the Ivies will hurt, but not too much. Yes, other colleges will lose more top students to the most selective schools that are providing a great deal of financial aid to the middle class, he noted. But the Ivies have long skimmed the cream off his candidate pool. "What you have to remember is that [even with the new financial aid policies] the number of kids that we're talking about is very small," says Blackburn....</p>

<p>At second-and third-tier private universities, though, the impact could be much more severe. "We do provide what we think are very generous financial aid packages for the middle class," says Colgate University's David Hale, vice president for finance and administration. But Colgate, with an endowment of $700 million, has less prestige and can't provide the kind of handouts that Harvard, with its $34 billion endowment, can. Colgate isn't changing its financial aid policy, says Hale, "but we do have to be aware of what's going on. Schools compete hard for those students."</p>

<p>Economist Ronald Ehrenberg, director of the Cornell Higher Education Research Institute, thinks he knows how the new policies will play out for schools like Colgate, and he's worried. "Each institution wants to maintain their place in the pecking order," says Ehrenberg. Top colleges have signaled their intention to use their considerable endowments to bid against each other "for the same small group of talented middle-class students." Second- and third-tier schools, which aren't sitting on the same kind of endowment war chest, "will have to sweeten the packages in order to lure top middle-class kids by taking money away from students who really need it: low-income students."</p>

<p>Of course, most low-income students are educated at public colleges and universities. But at a time when the United States is failing to keep pace with an increasingly educated global workforce, the notion of narrowing any portal of access to higher education for poor kids seems like a bad idea indeed."</p>

<p>Tuition:</a> The Price-Break Problem | Newsweek Education | Newsweek.com</p>

<p>People should not be penalized for being responsible with their money and advancing themselves. I'm sure that most kids here had parents that struggled to pay for college, and now they have a successful job and make enough to pay for their own kids. I believe that anyone that has a job is capable for paying for their child's education, they just have to actually save money. </p>

<p>There are kids that I know that are getting massive amounts of scholarships because they are so poor and they are going to Europe for 2 months this summer. Is that right?</p>

<p>Is it also right that we get penalized and receive less financial aid if we have a college savings account? I think not. People should not be penalized for being responsible and trying hard.</p>

<p>Skygirl, you will have the final say when you graduate and prove your worth to everyone. That's all I have to say. And I know it may be hard for you to sympathize with others' plights, but the middle class has similar problems with college costs that you do.</p>

<p>Sorry didn't see OK's post before I sent mine in, but yes, college savings accounts should not be included in FA appraisals. Speaking from an unbiased PoV here, cause I didn't have one and still think it's unfair</p>

<p>I also get angered when kids file for dependency so that they can receive financial aid, even though their parents are the ones actually paying for it. People cheat the system so much.</p>

<p>I also think that the state issued financial aid should not go towards private schools. I really have a problem when the kids that "have no money" (yet they are going to Europe, have massive amounts of shoes/clothes, an expensive car, and designer clothing/purses, and brag about how the parent they don't live with is a millionaire) are allowed to attend a private university at no cost, while I will be struggling to attend a state university because of the simple fact that my family is honest about income and is responsible with it.</p>

<p>OKgirl makes a great point when financial aid is only based on custodial parent's income and assetts. If my husband (who actually just lost his job) gets a really terrific job I may consider divorce.... LOL</p>

<p>^^ Ah, but it's not only based on custodial parent's income and assets... I'm learning that the hard way...</p>

<p>
[quote]

  1. Money are usually a reward for hard work. 12-14 hours a day without a day are a norm in some professions at particular career steps.
  2. A majority of upper middle class families are those where mom is working full time. Being a housewife is not a job, it's a choice. Working mothers manage to do laundry and clean the house on weekends, you know. [and everyone would have a different opinion on how long children are "babies", and how many kids you need to have to be unable to work, and how much working mother should support those who prefer not to work].
  3. A lot of high-income families have one or two kids. Some made this choice because they knew that raising kids is expensive. **
  4. Cheap education is available to adults. At community colleges on weekends, for example. So lack of education is not an excuse, it's a choice. **
  5. A lot of families with high income have special circumstances that force them to work. And FAFSA does not always consider these circumstances. Like support of elderly parents (if they are not living with you FAFSA does not care about their existence). Or high likelyhood of disability (there are problems that run in the families that people would not tell you about). Or high chance of unemployment at 60 (it goes far beyond sports, trust me). Or just a late start (doctors graduate 200K in debt being more than 30 ears old), by the time they send their kids to college they frequently do not have savings. Overall, it's a bad idea to count other peoples' money.

[/quote]

citymom, you described exactly the situation we are in and most of my friends. We are all late start professionals, with double income, which automatically put us in upper-middle class category. We chose to work instead of stay home, missed a lot opertunities and fun to growup with our own kids. And no one of us 'dares' to 'risk' more than two kids because of knowing the 'cost'. ... And now we are end of in a position to pay our kid's full tuition out from our retirement saving. Which by the end our retirement life would be not much better than those 'poor' family parents, who has the school pay for their kids' tuition. .... </p>

<p>Sorry, SkyGirl, I shouldn't rant to reply rant. But citymom's point 4. was what we went through, so now our kids don't have to go that same route again. My advice would be considering what you've being through now, whatever you do, make sure your current difficulties not happen to your next generation.</p>

<p>From personal experience, I'll tell you that being middle class or even upper middle class does NOT mean that you can just easily afford college on your own. I have to take out a pretty big loan because my parents simply cannot afford to pay 20k a year. And that's WITH a scholarship. </p>

<p>And growing up in a largely middle class town, I know a lot of my friends are in the same position. Our parents have to pay off mortgages, car loans, rising food and gas prices. And on top of that, middle class America takes the biggest hit when it comes to taxes.</p>

<p>Ok again I sympathetic to the middle class I really am, but alot of your points lack and depth or knowledge of the subject.</p>

<p>First point I will like to make is that most of you guys complain about the system, but barely any of you give a logical way to fix the problem. (granted some ideas have been really good)</p>

<p>Second. If everything was based on merit aid (like i stated days ago) the system would be more flawed than it is now. Remember income can buy a better education, prep classes, tutors, and you will need to work else than others less fortunate.<br>
The biggest flaw about merit aid, is the fact that at top universities, MERIT IS SO AMBIGOUS!!!!!! how do you determine whether subject (A) with a better gpa but less ECS deserves more than SUBJECT (B)...... SOMEBODY WILL STILL GET CHEATED....</p>

<p>Third.......... DO YOU KNOW HOW BIG THE MIDDLE CLASS IS!!!!!!!!!!!!
If the government decided to give all the middle class the same amount of aid as low income. I believe the government will have a bit of trouble with that </p>

<p>Also you guys are saying how your parents had to deal with a bunch of stuff to get you where you are at. OK what do you think our parents just sat at home sleeping?????? I think not. </p>

<p>The ones who are wrong are you guys! You know you guys have a nice life, eat good food, have good clothes (granted there are special situations). How about our parents sacrafice just as much as your parents, but the difference is YOU guys do not give up anything. There are so many affordable state schools that are top notch, and that I woud love to attend, BUT NO you must attend 40k a semester private good name.<br>
My solution I think works the best, because all of us have to go threw it, even low income families. If you cant afford it, and they give you no money, BLAME THEM!!!!!!! and then go to a state school and be happy and save yourself from stress. (i.e U of Miami gives alot of merit aid, but does not give a free ride for low income families. REASON WHY I ATTEND FIU.) </p>

<p>Lastly, I understand some people cheat the system, and the system in itself is not perfect, but there is no such thing as perfect. There is always going to be a loser and there is always going to be special cases where its unfair, but you need to realize we all have to suffer one way or another, we just have to adjust, adapt and live on.</p>

<p>
[quote]

On CC folks often list 40 or 45K as the median family income. In most states, per the US census data median family income for a family of 4 is much higher.

[/quote]

Is US census data based on tax return? If so, how many of these house holds have kid at college age? How many houshold is just a young single person that just out of college, or may be still in college or HS who works and has to file tax retrun?</p>

<p>"The biggest flaw about merit aid, is the fact that at top universities, MERIT IS SO AMBIGOUS!!!!!! how do you determine whether subject (A) with a better gpa but less ECS deserves more than SUBJECT (B)...... SOMEBODY WILL STILL GET CHEATED...."</p>

<p>In some cases, it's very clear how merit aid is determined. Some schools give it out via formula: If you have a certain gpa, stats, and/or NMerit status, you automatically get merit aid.</p>

<p>At most schools, however, "merit aid" means you "merit" aid because you offer something the school wants: Whether that's being a male (LACs have to go far out of their way to attract males because relatively few males want to go to LACs), having a relatively high SAT, being from an underrepresented part of the country, being an artist or musician -- all of that is up to the university. Unless they have posted guidelines about merit aid, you can't assume that you'll get it because you have higher stats than does another applicant.</p>

<p>I applied to this school as my safety and so did this girl in my class. We're both top ten, though I was using this school as my safety and she was not. Because my mother works there, I get free tuition. But I just got a letter saying I was going to get a $44,000 (11k per year) scholarship on top of any financial aid given. Even though it's just my safety, I was a little excited because the scholarship was only given to the top applicants.</p>

<p>Of course, the girl in my class wasn't straightout angry, but she seemed upset. She said it was unfair I was getting so much money. That because my mother worked there and I wasn't paying tuition, the scholarship should have gone to someone that needs it more. I didn't say anything back, but I mean, it's not my fault the school gave me money. It was a merit based scholarship and just because someone's poor, that's no reason I should hand over my scholarship to them. =/</p>

<p>I have begged CC guys to take off this thread. If it is not possible, that I will ask them to lock it I figure. PLEASE IGNORE THIS THREAD and my opinion. I am not sure what you people want me to do. I never argued with anyone and never raised my voice even. My middle school teachers used to complain to my dad that I am too timid.
Do you people want me to apologize for thinking this thought? If that what it takes for everyone to leave me alone, I will. I am going through a tough time, I put up this thread, but I did not THINK EVER to attract attention to myself.
I never knew how people think, but now I know. I will move on, but from now one I will think twice before opening my mouth anywhere.
And please leave it at that. I never hurt anyone in my life, and if my opinion has hurt anyone, I am sorry. I have been also hurt by the hostility I received in this thread.
And my intention is never to hurt anyone. I am sorry for creating this conflict. Good day everyone, and good luck to everyone and their children in their college admission process. I wish everyone can solve their problems.</p>

<p>Skygirl</p>

<p>This thread has taken on a life of its own which goes beyond directing comments at you. Please don't take all of these comments as being directed at you. Everyone has their own opinion and you are allowed to have one as well. </p>

<p>Financial aid is a sensitive subject where no one ever seems to be happy. And some of the arguments on both sides are valid. Unfortunately it is not a perfect system, but I think that most will agree to agree that in most ways the system is not fair.</p>

<p>SkyGirl,</p>

<p>it is true, as was pointed out, that this thread has gone beyond your personal point of view and your own situation; please do not take this thread personally. The fact is, you started it off with an absolutely valid point. The good news is, people who have had some adversity to overcome are always infinitely more interesting than those who have everything as well as the silver spoon. As for the families with three and four children and the McMansions and the multiple cars, it is hard to feel sympathy for your choices.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>I agree with the above. The OP has requested that the thread be defeatured and closed, and I agree with both requests. Participants who are interested in discussing the POLICY issues brought up in this thread are welcome to visit a thread of related interest, </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/469331-do-colleges-actually-prefer-admit-wealthy-students.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/469331-do-colleges-actually-prefer-admit-wealthy-students.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>where the focus is mostly on admission chances for applicants of different income levels and not so much on financial aid as such. </p>

<p>Best wishes to all the current applicants.</p>