<p>
[quote]
I'm from Long Island, New York, and I go to a top public school--a magnet-public per se--definitely one of the best and most respected on the Island.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>OK, that helps assess your chances. I would be very wary of anyone tellling you have a "decent shot" without knowing your class rank and the type of high school. That combination is probably the biggest single factor in admissions.</p>
<p>You need to sit down with your guidance counselor and find out where students with your stats and GPA, from your high school, have been accepted in recent years. Be careful to discount "hooked" students -- recruited athletes, minorities, and legacies.</p>
<p>The reason we parents are trying to be realisitic is that we understand that every top student from Long Island and Westchester County, and North Jersey and Connecticut and Boston is applying to exactly the same colleges you are and that there isn't enough room for everybody.</p>
<p>We aren't trying to throw cold water on you. For all we know, you could packing for Yale next summer. But, a miscalibrated college list is the biggest mistake you can make. I don't know that yours is miscalibrated, but it is as top-heavy as any list I've ever seen and I've seen some top-heavy lists. Personally, I would only stick with your current list if you are excited about Binghamton.</p>
<p>You have excellent scores and a good GPA. You should get into a good school. But you are being mislead if you think that you are a shoo-in for HYP or the like. No one, not even 4.0 valedictorians are a shoo-in for such elite schools. In my experience on this site, kids way overestimate other kids' chances at a school. Look instead at the parent's advice and you will see a much more conservative recommendation. There is a reason; we have a bit more personal experience from our own kids' applicaitons as well as our friends liks over many years. Believe it or not there are many more kids with your credentials out there than spots for the top 10-20 schools. And again for a given school even at the 20-50 level in general more kids are rejected than accepted even with credentials like you have. You need to expand your list to include some schools where there is a higher likihood of acceptance or you may really have to settle for the only safety on your current list. Sorry, but that's a real risk and you are hearing it from now many sources following your thread. We are not trying to be mean or deflate your ego; we are trying to help you potentially avoid a serious disappointment.</p>
<p>We are not trying to bum you out or be negative, it's just that we were on CC during April-- and beyond andi's son, we saw so many kids with lists and stats like yours being WL or rejected at every school except the 'Binghamton' on their list. Go to the Ivy threads from April entitled things like 'Accepted/Rejected/Stats' for the evidence.</p>
<p>You could be admitted to a reach, of course. A 1600 SAT with a 4.0 can also be rejected. It is impossible to know for sure. </p>
<p>Look at it this way, if you ARE admitted to a reach, does it hurt that you were also careful to find good matches & safeties and you have several schools to pick from? NO. If you ARE NOT admitted to a reach, aren't you going to be GLAD you still have several schools to pick from? Of course you are.</p>
<p>Finally, if you look carefully, there are schools out there that are very similar to your reaches and wouldn't feel like a huge come-down if you were to attend them instead. There is a huge territory between Penn and SUNY!!</p>
<p>Tulane is a great idea. You can find other schools around this tier, and maybe a few more with higher % of applicants admitted.</p>
<p>You won't be sorry for doing this homework-- it can only make for an easier spring to have an acceptance or two in hand early.</p>
<p>Okay. Thanks, and don't think I'm trying to be hostile; I truly appreciate the honesty from you guys on CC. But, the truth is, I've always assumed that I wouldn't go to Binghamton. My sister goes there, I've been there many times, and I don't really find all that appealling. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure the academics are great, the people could be fantastic, but the campus itself and the life both on and off campus just never struck me as personally intriguing. I always just understood that it's important to have a safety JUST IN CASE everything falls through, but that the matches and one or two reaches will make up for it in the end. So I guess my list is bad. Well, not bad, but extremely "miscalibrated," as you put most bluntly :)</p>
<p>Therefore, I must present the question, seeing the schools I like (everything but Binghamton, really), what safeties/real SOLID matches do you think would work for me?</p>
<p>Thanks guys. This is what makes CC awesome.</p>
<p>Yes, if you read some of the forums, kids at schools like Hotchkiss end Exeter are getting reality checks when they thought Brown and Darmouth were back ups from them, only applying to Ivies and ending up at a state school...you're list looks like a set up for that.</p>
<p>Just think of it in this way, if you didn't not get into any of your first category schools, youre safety net is one school, you have no options! Don't do that to yourself, you should have three (two minimum) in that 2nd set of schools or you will be royally ****ed!</p>
<p>Yes, I was worried you did not see yourself at Binghamton.</p>
<p>You have to decide how you are willing to "compromise." If you are considering only urban northeastern school you will have to shoot lower in order to get a match or safety because these schools are heavily-applied-to. (Northeastern, BC, George Washington, American could be safer bets for you.)</p>
<p>A well crafted application & essay, visiting the school and showing genuine interest, etc, all help you. </p>
<p>Picking a school in an odd or remote area (like Lawrence University-- in Appleton, Wisconsin) can really help; these regionally-well-regarded schools are trying for a more national student body and this helps you; plus many bright kids in that part of the country attend, so the caliber of students is high.</p>
<p>Some places have a very clear stats-driven admission that you KNOW you qualify for. </p>
<p>Some schools are trying to beef up certain departments-- for example, JHU was (I am told) seeking out humanities students. Obviously JHU is not a safety but knowing things like this can help you as you form your list.</p>
<p>A school like St Johns could be really interesting for a philosophy major; VERY intellectual but quirky and thus not so many applicants.</p>
<p>Which of the reaches is the MOST appealing to you, and why? That can help indicate which matches and safeties might also be appealing.</p>
<p>I'm glad you are taking our concerns in the spirit they are intended. What size school do you prefer? Urban vs suburban? Are you willing to go far afield (I agree that might make you more attractive to a well-regarded regional school)?
Some suggestions and then please feel free to comment on your reactions to each one:</p>
<p>Rutgers: match/safety
Penn State:match
UConn: match/safety
BC, BU: match
Brandeis: match
Northeastern: safety
Hobart: match/safety
Ithaca: match
University of Vermont: safety</p>
<p>Rutgers: was there and really really disliked New Brunswick
Penn State: I have trouble considering it a match, as many from my school end up there with 1200's and low GPA's
UConn: same as Penn State and it really doesn't interest me from what I've seen and the people I've seen that go there
BC, BU: BC is an option, but I hate the so-called "campus" of BU
Brandeis: didn't like the type of people at the school; far too left-wing
Northeastern: Not a bad idea, but when I walked by last December I can't say I was very impressed or taken aback by any of it.
Hobart: never heard of it actually
Ithaca: Same as Penn State. The people that go there from my school are typically students with stats int he 1200's and low 3 GPA's
UVT: the people I know who go here from my school and area are just not very intelligent. No offense to anybody who goes there, I'm sure it's a great school, but the people I've known who have gone off to UVT were just not the sharpest tools in the shed, and that just hurts it right there.</p>
<p>Of my major reaches, I'd say Princeton and UPenn are probably my favorites (but I'll be visiting Yale this weekend, so we'll see...). When I visited the two schools, I was very pleased with the campuses (UPenn's was a perfect blend of urban and traditional "green", Princeton was just purely gorgeous and a beautiful, homely place). As I've said, I've done extensive research on every school on my list, and Princeton and Yale strike me as the best academic opportunity for my particular interest. For instance, Princeton just hired Peter Singer, an incredible and controversial philosopher and writer who I'd absolutely LOVE to take classes. Yale just has a strong overall feel to its programs and it just FEELS perfect after reading extensively on both the positives and negatives at the school. Socially, all three of those schools (Penn, Princeton, Yale) are perfect in my eye, all for their different ways. Penn is a big school--great opportunities to constantly meet new people, great living environment; Princeton has the 2-year residential colleges (although apparently they'll have several 4-year residential colleges starting 2007) and the eating clubs, which I find fascinating and it seems to be a great social experience; Yale has strong residential colleges and a great on-campus social scene that I'd love to be a part of. On the whole, I want schools that mirror these three schools in one way or another, I guess.</p>
<p>I really just do NOT want to be left going to Binghamton, and I mean, say I did apply to these schools this way--truly, what are the chances of getting rejected at every school?</p>
<p>And Cre8tive1, I've said before in the thread, I'm planning on majoring in Philosophy (or "Philosophy, Politics, and Economics" if I were to be accepted and matriculate at Penn).</p>
<p>Here's my rule of thumb for a white, non-hooked, non-athlete, non-legacy applicant from the Northeast:</p>
<p>Princeton/Yale: </p>
<ul>
<li>Class Rank at which students from YOUR school routinely get accepted</li>
<li>2250 SATs</li>
<li>An EC (or something) that really stands out from the pack</li>
</ul>
<p>It's still not a sure bet, but at least it's a plausible application -- probably good enough to get a waitlist.</p>
<p>Williams:</p>
<ul>
<li>Class Rank at which students from YOUR school routinely get accepted</li>
</ul>
<p>plus</p>
<ul>
<li>2250 SATs</li>
<li>Solid ECs</li>
</ul>
<p>or</p>
<ul>
<li>2100 SATs</li>
<li>An EC (or something) that really stands out from the pack</li>
</ul>
<p>Vanderbilt:</p>
<ul>
<li>Class Rank at which students from YOUR school routinely get accepted</li>
<li>2100 SATs</li>
<li>Solid ECs</li>
</ul>
<p>Bump the SATS up to 2250 or give 'em a stand out EC and Vanderbilt would become a pretty sure bet.</p>
<p>Obviously, these are just rough guides and many qualitative factors (e.g. socio-economic, knock-out application) can shift the odds a bit. At some schools, ED can make a difference. But, that's pretty much how I would view your chances at three different levels of selectivity on your current list. I can't be more precise because I don't have the key piece of information: where are kids with your class rank from your school getting accepted. </p>
<p>BTW, as an impartial observer, I would view your ECs as solid, but nothing these schools don't see all the time. If you work 15 hours a week during the school-year, that might be your best bet for standing out from the crowd.</p>
<p>I work 15 hrs/wk + 2.5 hrs/wk interning for local legislator, plus several hours put into the club I help run (Model UN).</p>
<p>Also, I'm curious, why do people keep telling me to raise my SAT's? Shouldn't the ACT score have well taken care of that? I feel focusing on some solid SAT-II's is more crucial...</p>
<p>
[quote]
I really just do NOT want to be left going to Binghamton, and I mean, say I did apply to these schools this way--truly, what are the chances of getting rejected at every school?
[/quote]
If people here have learned one thing, its that they can't reliably estimate chances without some knockout factor. If your dad lived in the White House, you were an Intel Finalist, or were the all-state quarterback, we can predict. But for most people the success of your apps depends on things we can't reliably know/evaluate. How good you write essays, for example, and what your ECs say about you. And how many other kids send in apps that look more or less like yours. Bright kids from the New England area are not exactly a rare commodity ...</p>
<p>Admissions is NOT random, but since we don't know all the variables it may not be predictable by the forum audience either. Like I said before, you'll probably either get into several or none.</p>
<p>Don't be dissuaded from applying to these schools if its your dream, or you'll always be asking yourself "I didn't get into X & Y, but if I had sent an app to Z also maybe THEY would have taken me". On the other hand, your list is simply not wise if thats it. The odds are decent that you'll end up in the spring with a choice of exactly one school, Binghampton, and you've already said you don't want to go there. </p>
<p>Here's my advice. You've spent enough time dreaming about the reaches, visiting and so on. Now buckle down and spent that much time, if not more, finding safeties you can love as well as matches. They are out there, and if you can get over the pain of not being able to casually say "me? I'm a frosh at Stanford/Princeton/etc." you'll be just fine.</p>
<p>Trinity-- gorgeous campus (modeled after Trinity College of Oxford?, I think), sociable lively students, good humanities all around, not too politically liberal, & one notch less selective than HYPSMCAWS. To me this is closest "clone" of U Penn, Princeton & Yale.</p>
<p>Colgate-- sporty, friendly, preppy smart kids in gorgeous environment but rural location.</p>
<p>Hamilton-- similar to Colgate but smaller # of students same region.</p>
<p>(Hobart is less selective upstate NY school in this vein.)</p>
<p>Skidmore-- beautiful campus but modern architecture; very happy, social environment, pretty & chichi town (Saratoga) good humanities.</p>
<p>Syracuse-- mid sized U; top notch sports (basketball,) great education, bigger & more urban than above schools</p>
<p>For a bit wider a geographical area: Bucknell, Lafayette, Franklin & Marshall, William & Mary, Davidson? </p>
<p>Do look at St Johns for kicks. "Great books"-type core program; lots of foundational philosophy.</p>
<p>Try the "honors colleges" of the top publics for some matches...</p>
<p>I have a relative who attended a top 5 HS, was a Westinghouse (now Intel) winner, 4.0 uw gpa, 1570 SAT, was a scientific journal editor, and did genetics research at a leading research institute, and did not get into Harvard. (Did get into some other Ivy's.) My S's good friend with stats similar to yours was turned down by UChicago. Listen to what the folks are saying and apply to some matches and safeties as well.</p>
<p>You have wonderful ECs and solid academic credentials. That said, I would add to what earlier posters have said. You shoud seriously research schools other than Binghamton that appeal to you. UVa is very much a reach for out of staters and as a state university is quite numbers driven; based on what I know from my children's HS, I don't think your GPA will excite the admissions office, and I don't think it's that great a loss for you if you don't get in. I think Michigan and Wisconin-Madison might be more realistic and both terrific schools if you are pursuing flagship state universities. Vanderbilt has gotten some publicity lately as actively recruiting Jewish students and that should be a help to you, especially given your other excellent credentials. If you are seriously interested in Williams and/or Amherst, and also in pursuiing a philosophy major, you might look at Davidson, which is essentially in the Charlotte (NC) suburban area, ranks very highly in USNWR and similar places, and feels very much like Williams. It has very few Jewish students but welcomes those few it has, and among its requirements for graduation are two philosphy courses, one of which must be in the religion department (which is not in the least limited to Christian subjects.) Your very impressive ECs would also fit in nicely to the Davidson mix I think. It is not appreciably more southern than Vanderbilt and might be an interesting option for you--would not really be a match but would not be a superreach either given its desire for regional and ethnic diversity.</p>
<p>You are getting really good and consistent advice. Certainly apply to your tops choices and hope you get in; if you do that will be fantastic. But give yourself other realistic back-up choices besides Binghampton. Actually, if you know you don't want to go there, don't include it in your list. You should be able to find other schools of similar selectivity that will be more appealing. You have been given a number of very specific recommendations to explore and I would concure that now is the time to put your energy into finding less selective schools that you would still enjoy attending. Try not to get too hung up on the prestige thing. We are all susceptible to it for ourselves and our kids, but the truth of the matter is that where you go has much less to do with your success in life as what you do when you are there. You have been specific about what you don't like about some of my earlier suggestions. It sounds like you have a pretty good vision for the aethetics, environment, and programs that excite and appeal to you. With the right research you can find schools that will be a good match for you.</p>
<p>Thanks a lot and I really appreciate the help you guys have offered and continue to offer. This is great; this is what I signed up for CC for--to gain a better understand of the college process and recieve insight from those who've already gone through it. I guess it's now time I sit down and find some schools I can definitely get into, but schools that I would also love to attend. With some hope and some luck, I'll find myself packing my bags for one of my top choices next year. But you guys are right, and I remember reading an archived version of the Andison thread--I need to be prepared for a loss, and I need to be optimistic but realistic. It's time for some, well, some more research....</p>
<p>When you are talking about schools that accept 10--20% of their applicants (and that includes athletes and legacy, so acceptance rate for regular applicants is much lower) it is not safe for anyone to count on getting in.</p>
<p>You are told you have a decent shot by people in those forums - well, unless they are on the admissions committee, their assurance doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot - and even then, all it means is you have a decent CHANCE - ie, you're not an automatic rejection. Do your stats compare favorably to people who attend those schools - ok, maybe yes, and that's why they're saying you have a "decent shot". </p>
<p>BUT the next question,that too many students considering these schools forget to ask - how do your stats compare with those of many of the students that they reject? You really need to realize what percent of students with your type of stats get REJECTED. </p>
<p>Don't just look at charts that show what percentage of their admitted students have what stats - ask if they have charts that show what percentage of applicants with given stats get admitted. When we were gathering admissions info, I recall Tufts being one of the few schools that had such a chart right in their brochure - and the numbers were staggering - even in the top gpa/SAT combination a significant number of applicants were rejected!</p>
<p>I know someone who was valedictorian, won all the school's awards, the gc encouraged applying to all top schools - the kid is going to a school that was applied as the only "safety" on the list - its the only school the kid got in to. </p>
<p>And as for coming from a top school on Long Island - quite honestly, demographics are going to work against you - there are a ton of really really bright kids from Long Island applying to many of the schools on your list - and all of them think they are the ones who will get in.</p>
<p>i started drafting my response before your last posting was up - glad to see that you have heard what has been said here. consider yourself very lucky to have come to this realization in july when there is still plenty of time to do something about it. i knew so many kids in my daughter's class last year who were in for the shocks of their lives when they didn't get ED acceptances and started scrambling to make sure they had safeties on their remaining list - and then there were those in for even a bigger shock when the RD letters came out.
good luck!</p>