<p>Brown is a slightly better undergraduate institution than UCB, which is why USNews, a magazine that measured undergraduate strength, ranks Brown higher. What don’t you get here rjk?</p>
<p>Completely different, completely different students should go to each, but clearly peers, though I’d give Brown the universal advantage for undergrad (except in a few fields, business and engineering) and UCB the universal advantage for graduate school (except may in a few programs or some specific cases).</p>
<p>Which fields, other than obscure majors, would you consider Brown better in than Berkeley modestmelody? I don’t need a long list. To be quite honest, I don’t think you’ll be able to produce an extensive one anyway.</p>
<p>
My nomination for most uninformed post of the day.</p>
<p>
Graduate or undergraduate?</p>
<p>^ oh brother…</p>
<p>undergraduate.</p>
<p>Thrill me with your acumen.</p>
<p>Please, UCBChemEGrad, I agree with every post of yours in this thread. Don’t go off the bias deep end on us right now.</p>
<p>I could go through a few undergrad programs where I think for reasons of attention and access combined with a program of similar caliber or slightly below that Brown would be best for (running out to the dentist), but overall I think that the main reason Brown is a better undergraduate institution is the total-- general education and concentration-- experience at Brown. That being said, neuro, cog sci, applied math, education studies (policy for undergraduates, not sure on human devo, I’d even choose it for grad students, but that reasoning is complicated) and literary arts are areas I’d give nudges to Brown for as an undergraduate (though LA recently lost it’s department head and grad students for a year).</p>
<p>^ Fair enough…
To paraphrase another Hannibal Lecter quote…thanks for making the effort to answer. :)</p>
<p>Yes, thanks for answering modestmelody. I wonder if UCBChemEGrad would like to provide his list. I’m certain it will be quite a bit longer.</p>
<p>Is UCB underrated? Well, if you’re considering their undergraduate offering in the context of its USNWR ranking (#21) and in comparison with all of the schools in the USA, then the answer is almost certainly “NO.” </p>
<p>I say this not as a rebuke to UC Berkeley, but as a recognition that there are many excellent colleges across the USA that might have lower prestige among the academic elite, but which offer a superior undergraduate education. The top college competition is very good and widespread, if not fully appreciated by many on CC. </p>
<p>My conclusion is based on the following:</p>
<ol>
<li> STRENGTH OF THE STUDENTS
UCB’s Stats
1210-1470 = SAT 25/75<br>
29%, 72% = percentage of students scoring 700+ and 600+ on Critical Reading<br>
51%, 83% = percentage of students scoring 700+ and 600+ on Math
22% Acceptance Rate<br>
99% Top 10% students</li>
</ol>
<h1>37 Ranked by 25th percentile among national universities</h1>
<h1>24 Ranked by 75th percentile among national universities</h1>
<h1>28 Ranked by mid-point of SAT 25/75 range</h1>
<h1>30 Ranked by percentage of students scoring 700+ on SAT Critical Reading</h1>
<h1>38 Ranked by percentage of students scoring 600+ on SAT Critical Reading</h1>
<h1>23 Ranked by percentage of students scoring 700+ on SAT Math</h1>
<h1>35 Ranked by percentage of students scoring 600+ on SAT Math</h1>
<h1>14 Ranked by Acceptance Rate</h1>
<h1>1 Ranked by percentage of Top 10% students</h1>
<p>Note: UC Berkeley enrolls about 2000 transfer students per year. It is highly likely that their statistical comparison is less than the above.</p>
<p>Further note: If you use Top 10% students as an important metric in judging selectivity, then UCB is underrated. However, keep in mind that this metric places 5 other UC schools (UCLA, UCSD, UCI, UCD, UCSB) in the national Top 12. </p>
<ol>
<li> SIZE OF THE CLASSROOM
UCB’s Stats
62% = % of classes with fewer than 20 students
24% = % of classes with 20-50 students
14% = % of classes with 50+ students
15/1 = Student/Faculty Ratio</li>
</ol>
<p>When compared against the other colleges in the USWNR Top 50 national universities, UCB ranks:</p>
<h1>24 ranked by % of classes with fewer than 20 students</h1>
<h1>13 ranked by % of classes with 20-50 students</h1>
<h1>36 ranked by % of classes with 50+ students</h1>
<h1>41 ranked by Student/Faculty ratio</h1>
<h1>33 Overall USNWR Faculty Resources Ranking</h1>
<ol>
<li> QUALITY OF CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION
This is a subjective assessment and there are many sources that one can look at to see how schools are viewed by their customers. I have yet to find a source that ranks UC Berkeley anywhere near the Top 20 when it comes to classroom instruction.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>However, clearly the school has an outstanding reputation in the academic world (probably owing to its graduate programs) and this should be considered a positive. For the USWNR Peer Assessment rating system, UC Berkeley ranks 6th. This is by far the strongest element of any argument contending that UC Berkeley deserves to be ranked in the nation’s Top 20 (although its relationship to undergraduate education is not fully clear).</p>
<ol>
<li> INSTITUTIONAL RESOURCES AND WILLINGNESS TO USE THEM ON UNDERGRADS
UCB’s Stats
$2.9 billion Total Endowment
$82,969 Endowment per capita</li>
</ol>
<h1>23 when ranked nationally by Total Endowment</h1>
<h1>69 when ranked nationally by Endowment per capita</h1>
<h1>44 USNWR Financial Resources Ranking</h1>
<p>Finally, I think that the matter of cost needs to be considered.<br>
$25,990 IS Cost of Attendance
$46,598 OOS Cost of Attendance </p>
<p>In most cases for California students without financial need, the cost for UCB will be a clear advantage. For OOS students, the cost difference is modest with most of the Top 20 privates and the financial aid/merit aid is often superior at these private institutions. For them, matters of school size, cultural fit and individual departments will likely drive the decision. </p>
<p>Graduation rates may also factor into the Cost of Attendance. UCB’s 4-year graduation rate is but 61%. Among national universities ranked in the USNWR Top 50, UCB rate only merits a 39th place finish. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that, for California residents, UC Berkeley is a very good undergraduate alternative at a reasonable cost. For them, UCB is not underrated and particularly not for its very highly rated programs in engineering. </p>
<p>But when considered in a national context, one must recognize and acknowledge that there are twenty or more other fine schools across the USA that will offer a better undergraduate academic framework and setting. Against this universe of colleges, UC Berkeley is not underrated.</p>
<p>
True…you’re talking to one of 'em. :)</p>
<p>
appreciate the bone, hawkette!</p>
<p>
LOL! Hawkette, whenever you rail against those academic “elites” I picture Sarah Palin chastising the “liberal, media elite” for not understanding your “maverick” style. ;)</p>
<p>ucb,
I tried to keep it “fair and balanced.” Hope you enjoyed the bone.</p>
<p>And thanks for not calling me “slutty.” :)</p>
<p>hawkette, no mean to disrespect you, but how come you’re still not accepting the fact that Berkeley does not put as much emphasis on SAT scores as much as they do high school GPAs? If Berkeley is such a SAT whore just like most privates are, Berkeley can well afford to do it and it would surely tip the scale to its favour. Sadly, what fancies you don’t fancy Berkeley adcom/officials. But just because such discrepancy in criteria between you and Berkeley exists does not mean Berkeley is an inferior school. Besides, student make up (student body/student selectivity) only accounts a fraction of how the general university caliber should be measured. </p>
<p>On Topic:
Berkeley is slightly underrated on CC. Berkeley’s postgrad education, in general, is superior to most schools on earth. That means, Berkeley’s postgrad education, in general, is superior to most Ivy League schools. In general, it’s superior to Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Cornell, UPenn, and even more so, Brown and Dartmouth. </p>
<p>For professional education, here’s what I think:
Law - Yale/Harvard > Columbia > Berkeley = Penn > Cornell (Princeton, Dartmouth & Brown don’t offer law)
Business - H > Penn(Wharton) > Columbia = Berkeley = Dartmouth (Tuck) > Cornell
Engineering - Berkeley > Cornell > Harvard = Penn > Columbia > Yale > Brown
Medicine - Harvard > UCSF > Yale = Penn (and the rest)</p>
<p>For undergrad education, HYP > rest of the ivies = Berkeley</p>
<p>Hawkette, thanks for your subjective analysis of UC Berkeley. You attended that school when?</p>
<p>“You’ll have to decide whether you want to accept standardized test scores as an appropriate proxy for measuring student body strength. You will also have to decide if having a stronger class is of value to you. I personally accept standardized test scores as a reasonable proxy and I definitely prefer the strongest class of peers.”</p>
<p>Are Duke students dumber than Harvey Mudd students?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Because to Hawkette (and to be ‘fair and balanced’, many others), SAT is the ONLY normative data point that counts (for all of its benefits). Of course, the SAT also positively correlates with income, so it would be perhaps easier to use wealth of the student bodies to rank colleges, particularly since the UCs have an egalitarian streak and purposely ignore test scores to admit Pell Grantees – otherwise, Cal and UCLA would end up like UVa. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>UCBChem,</p>
<p>When do I find out if I won?</p>
<p>Love,</p>
<p>Jan</p>
<p>My H has PhD from Berkeley; his business partner from an Ivy, though not HY. Few of their international clients have even heard of the Ivy - but they are all deeply impressed by the Berkeley on his CV. </p>
<p>Moral of the story: Berkeley is an internationally renown academic power house, despite some CC’ers refusal to acknowledge that as a name brand it carries far greater prestige than the vast majority of elite LACs.</p>
<p>kat,
In case there is any confusion, I was writing about UC Berkeley’s undergraduate offering. </p>
<p>In addition, in several years of posting on CC, I don’t remember reading anywhere that someone is not giving props to UCB’s grad programs and how they are viewed by non-Americans (especially in Asia).</p>
<p>^^hawkette:</p>
<p>The problem that you and my good friend xiggi continue to ignore is that nearly Uni ranked higher than Cal also has renown grad programs, (with the possible exceptions of Dartmouth and Brown). Heck, do you really believe that Harvard is known for its undergrad teaching?</p>
<p>blue,
I’m not sure I follow your point, but I’m not claiming that having top grad programs can’t co-exist with top undergrad programs. But there are other clues about what the classroom environment is like at various colleges and that is what I’m referring to. Also, there are some publications that do expressly rank based on classroom teaching. For example, Stanford has pretty great grad programs. They also were ranked # 1 by Princeton Review for Classroom Experience. </p>
<p>[Test</a> Prep: GMAT, GRE, LSAT, MCAT, SAT, ACT, and More](<a href=“Best Colleges for Classroom Experience | The Princeton Review”>Best Colleges for Classroom Experience | The Princeton Review)</p>
<p>As for Harvard’s classroom teaching, read the COFHE survey and the results therein are pretty damning re the quality of Harvard’s teaching.</p>