<p>Since UVA ranked 15 in 1998, it has been passed by the following schools: Caltech, Penn, Columbia, WUSTL, Northwestern, Hopkins, Emory, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Vandy, Carnegie Mellon, USC. Now tied with UCLA and Wake. </p>
<p>Duke was 6 in 98, 9 today. Cornell was 11 in 98, 15 today. Rice was 14, now 17. So UVA is further behind them today on a relative basis than then. </p>
<p>OOS students are increasingly picking those schools over UVA because (after merit and need aid) they are often less expensive than UVA.</p>
<p>UVA is still a great school. But the rankings trends (which is what the OP asked about) are against it, not for it.</p>
<p>If you read the posts on this website over the last couple years, it is common for out of state students accepted at UVa to pick other universities because of cost. That is particularly true because UVa does not offer merit aid. For instance, if a family lives in a high cost of housing and high tax area, they may appear to have a moderately high income, but can’t afford 47K a year for UVa out of state, including room and board. Many choose to go to a flagship in their own state (sometimes on full rides) or to mid-level private college that offers excellent merit aid. That has not been a problem because there are so many out of state students interested in UVa, including a high growth rate in international students.</p>
<p>But let’s all keep in mind that US News may not be an accurate measure of the quality of undergrad education. Because UVa is smaller, UVa traditionally has placed a higher emphasis on undergrad education than some of the larger more research oriented public universiites.</p>
<p>There also are some colleges that are doing everything they can to play the numbers game to raise their US News rankings. A couple have also been caught submitting false data to US News, and a couple leading universities are suspiciously stingy in the amount of data they release to the public.</p>
<p>One thing Dragas understands is it’s all about the money. Without money the Yankees turn into the Royals. HYPS have the most money and the SEC football conference puts the most money into their teams. Top faculty follow the money and top students follow the merit aid. Without money UVA is on a downbound train in the USNWR. With money thrie future is bright and they will move up.
The OOS cash cow in running dry and schools are now looking at international students. IS students are becoming the red-headed stepchild of state flagships.</p>
<p>So it sounds like the 1998 US News ratings were wrong. I love UVa, but I don’t think UVa on the average should have been rated above Caltech, Penn, Columbia, Northwestern, Hopkins or Georgetown for overall academic quality. </p>
<p>(I do think UVa beats some of those schools for overall undergrad student experience. Also, for an in-state student, those universities may be better in some regards, but not $120,000 better.)</p>
<p>Looks like there was a change after 1998 in the USNWR formula that dropped all the public ivies. But even more recently, the trend is downward for UVA.</p>
<h1>22 in the 2005 rankings. Since then UVA has been passed by Gtown and USC, and has been tied by UCLA and Wake.</h1>
<p>The financial resources score gets worse every single year (49 in 2005; 64 in 2012 despite a massive endowment increase). And always a worse grade as compared to Cal, UCLA, UM and UNC.</p>
<p>Just about every public unversity has seen cuts in state funding, except N. Dakota which is newly rich with oil money. Another exception is UNC-CH, which receives much more state funding per student than most other public universities. The article describes changes at Berkeley in response to state funding cuts, including the fact that 30% of their recent freshman class were not California residents.</p>
<p>Charlie – for sure they are all affected. But UVA is affected to a greater extent. That is what those financial resources rankings keep saying year after year.</p>
<p>Cal certainly has some big problems. But it still gets more state money than UVA. It still gets more research funding than UVA. It has been allowed to raise in-state tuition significantly. And it has been allowed to massively increase OOS enrollment in just a couple of years time.</p>
<p>On the rise on the decline who can really say? Probably different people will reach differing conclusions, but I think most in the business world would say neither. UVA is what UVA is, ie, a very good school with some very good students amongst a larger student body that is above average. In this regard, its like most other schools, especially other public universities.</p>
<p>From what I can gather in talking with business people about the school is that the kids are seen as generally bright and well-balanced in their lives. They know how to have fun and still get stuff done and they dont take themselves overly seriously. Some consider this refreshing. Still, there are other hiring people who see UVA as offering an inferior selection group vs a collection of top students from more prominent colleges, regardless of how obnoxious or arrogant they may be (think Duke, many Ivies, etc.). They dont care about balancethey just want intellectual horsepower. UVA has some of this too, but not in as large a concentration as higher ranked colleges. </p>
<p>Among the academics, UVA has never had the same power as the Ivies or other top privates. Lots of reasons why. UVA is generally not as research oriented as many other top ranked colleges in things like engineering. The core of the University, physically and historically, is the undergraduate College of Arts & Sciences, most of which is located on or near the Lawn. Top grad programs like Business and Law are on a separate campus several miles awaytheyre part of the school, but its not the same intimacy/specialness as what students get walking around the central grounds area. Also, UVA has never had the great STEM programs to give the school the same research profile as others. Finally, UVA is in the South and has a conservative reputation–neither of those characteristics sits well with the liberal dominant tribe of academia. I think UVA is pushing a boulder up a hill with the people in academia. </p>
<p>But does any of this even matter?? The fact is that UVA, like many, many other schools, can get any intelligent, motivated student pretty much anywhere they want to go after graduation. Maybe the numbers wont be as compelling as the top privates, but UVA is highly regarded and highly respected nationally. My advicedont get seduced by the prestige game. Look for a school that YOU like, for reasons that are important to you. If you look closely, my guess is that youll find that theres a lot to like about UVA.</p>
<p>Do you guys think sullivan’s statement that some programs are presumed to be better than they actually are will really hurt rankings? Also, do you think the whole dilemma concerning Sullivan will affect reputation and rankings? This question is asked out of pure curiosity, not that I care too much about rankings…</p>
<p>The biggest component of the USNWR formula is academic reputation – what a bunch of other people ( hs counselors, professors and administrators at other colleges, etc.) think about UVA. If those folks still think UVA is great, then no effect on the rankings. If they think “you know, UVA is a bit over-rated” then the rankings go down.</p>
<p>I’d guess the short-term impact is slightly negative. Longer term, it will depend on what UVA does about its self-diagnosed reputation gap.</p>
<p>There are many colleges and universities that spend a fortune on full color mailings and videos they send to presidents of other colleges to try to get rated higher in reputation for US News. I would hope that the Presidents who do that ranking appreciate some candor for once. Pres. Sullivan has been the best good will ambassador UVa has had for decades - including among other college presidents.</p>
<p>I agree that Sullivan is well-respected in academic circles. Not sure if that is a positive or negative for UVA’s reputation in the short term though. Do other academics think less of UVA for trying to can such a respected academic? Do they think more of UVA since it reversed that decision? Do other academics believe Sullivan (because she is well respected) when she says UVA is over-rated with limited ability to replace its many retiring academic stars? Or do other academics cut UVA slack because they know that their colleges might have that same problem too? </p>
<p>I’d tend to think the recent publicity is bad publicity, and that in this context bad publicity is not good publicity.</p>
<p>Should a state flagship’s mission to be small, exclusive, selective, expensive, elite, and compete with private universities for OOS students and rankings? Or should a state flagship’s mission to be large, inclusive, open to B students, cost effective quality education to as many IS students as possible?</p>
<p>The “to be or not to be” question seems a bit inapposite regarding UVA.</p>
<p>With around 14,000 students undergrad, UVA is not the typical state flagship, ala schools with tens of thousands of students such as OSU, IU, IU, UT, FL, or UW. UVA is meant to be an enclave for top VA and OOS students (as is W&M), and there are many other VA state universities (Va Tech, JMU, ODU, VCU) to serve the same role as the flagship universities of other states. These schools, like state flagships, also get many top students, but are more diverse in terms of academic aptitude.</p>
<p>Let’s not forget the economic developent advantages. Many states have trouble holding onto their well-educated young people. UVa helps to attract very smart young people from other states and other countries, with many of those people deciding to stay in Va and create economic value.</p>
<p>Let’s also remember that the land grant university in Va. is Va. Tech. Most states only have one flagship - Va. has three - so there is room for each university to be different. (By the way, W&M is called a college, but many people prefer to say it is a ‘small research university’).</p>
<p>Yes, the Virginia model with separate enclave schools UVA and W&M is different from other states who use the honors college on it’s flagship campys for it’s top students. There are advantages of both models. As for USNWR ranking methods, private schools have an advantage over public schools and the Virginia model with UVA and W&M give them an advantage over the more inclusive schools with honors programs like OSU, FL, UNC, GA, Clemson. The Virginia model is probably more expensive to the taxpayers due to duplication of services.
Economic development is a big issue to many states. Many use lottery money and merit scholarships to keep it’s top students at home. OOS students are given IS rates and merit scholarships as well. A kid with UVA credentials from SC or GA has options. The honors college at Clemson or UGA for free or UVA at 50K/year. In this economy more and more students seem to follow the money.</p>
<p>I actually think that UVa has got more prestige than schools like Vanderbilt, Emory, Rice and <a href=“mailto:WashingtonU@StL”>WashingtonU@StL</a>. I’d pick UVa over any of those schools any day.</p>
<p>Not every public honors college gives out good aid. I’m a PA resident. My son got into Penn State’s honors college with the standard $3500 merit per year that all of the in-state and out-of-state honors students get and no other aid. (it is now up to $4500). My son got into Pitt’s honors program with no aid at all, which is extremely common. Pitt understandably directs most of their aid to the best out of state students, because those students have so many other less expensive options. He also got into U. Delaware’s honors program, which offered enough aid so that it was equal to in-state costs to attend Pitt.</p>
<p>Pitt and Penn State are the two most expensive colleges in the US for in-state tuition. </p>
<p>The state of Georgia has also cut back on their merit aid.</p>
<p>here is an excellent chart that the U. of Delaware just prepared to show new in-state and out-of-state tuition rates for a number of eastern US universities, including UVa, UNC, Georgia Tech, U. Md., Penn State, etc.</p>
<p>Remember this chart shows “list prices” and each university varies greatly in the amounts of merit and need based aid it provides. That is why it is very important to apply to a range of universities, so you can compare net prices.</p>
<p>Charlie – that’s an interesting chart. What it shows me is how much UVA’s OOS tuition has gone up over the years on a relative basis. </p>
<p>When I went there OOS, UVA’s price point was more like what Carolina’s still is. Although way more than IS tuition, UVA OOS was an awesome price/value proposition. Now the sticker is close to the same as a lot of really good private schools (and may often be less after accounting for aid and scholarships). Those private schools have great reps like UVA does, but often have smaller classes, nicer dorms, better food, etc. So UVA is not quite as attractive to my kids or to my checkbook as it used to be in the past.</p>
<p>I really wonder what the go-forward plan for UVA is going to be. The obvious financial strategies being employed by other state flagships aren’t available to UVA but neither is any more state money.</p>
<p>northwesty - I believe you have one student about to start at Tulane. Your family ‘voted’ with your feet which I think was a good choice given your opinion of the university you have shared here. Best of luck to your student at Tulane! Do you have any students currently at UVa, or is your interest strictly as an alumni?</p>
![http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2013/jul/images/TuitionFeesChart2.jpg[/url]](http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2013/jul/images/TuitionFeesChart2.jpg%5B/url%5D){kind=link}
