Is Yale

<p>First off, the similarities between Harvard and Yale far, far outweigh any differences in tone. They basically accept the same types of kids, who do the same types of things while they are there.</p>

<p>That said, in my generation (and I never attended Harvard, but had lots of friends and relatives there, and spent plenty of time there) I definitely thought Yale was a more collegial, friendly place. There were two main reasons for that: </p>

<p>First, the residential college system at Yale seemed to work better for fostering close relationships among students who had little in common. Kids were assigned randomly to a college before they matriculated, and they basically lived with the same people for all four years. At Harvard, you used to have to apply competitively to a house at the end of freshman year, and now its more random, but there is still a major reshuffling that goes on. The Yale system doesn't change who your closest friends are, but it means that after a few years you tend to have a very wide secondary circle of friends who you know pretty well and feel comfortable with, and they have close friends whom you meet, etc. I would never have gotten to know my wife but for the Yale residential colleges -- we didn't travel in the same circles at all, but we ate in the same dining hall and one of her friends started going out with one of my friends, and so we wound up at the same lunch table a few times. I'm sure that happens at Harvard, too, but at Harvard my wife and this particular friend of hers, and I and this particular friend of mine (later a roommate), would likely have wound up in four different houses.</p>

<p>Second, then and now people who cared a lot about brand value tended to choose Harvard over Yale, so Harvard had more of them. (At Yale, lots of kids will tell you they picked it because of the residential college system, which shows what they value, too.) To me, this gave Harvard an atmosphere something like New York -- "if I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere" -- people were very conscious of being at the center of the world and needing both to take advantage of it and to prove themselves. The question lots of people seemed to be asking was "How can I carve out a niche for myself?" This led to lots of overt competitiveness, not so much in the classroom (not at all, certainly no more than at Yale) as on the Crimson or the Lampoon, etc. That was hardly unknown at Yale, but Harvard seemed to attract a somewhat greater proportion of kids whose ambitions were somewhat more naked, and who liked engaging in dominance games with each other. In the zeitgeist of Yale at the time, overt personal ambition was a social faux pas (it was OK to want to change the world).</p>

<p>There are tons of counterexamples at each school to every statement I've made: warm, secure, noncompetitive people at Harvard with broad friendship circles, Napoleonic misanthropes at Yale. Still, the structural features have not changed much, and most of what I see and hear from my kids' friends suggests that the differences between the schools are still much the same. Many of the Harvard kids are quite anxious about whether they fit in, and what niche they are going to own. The Yale kids just don't worry about it much.</p>

<p>LOL: Here's my "grain of salt" comment. I'm a Yale grad and loved it there. However, I'm convinced that I would have loved attending H as well. I would have been honored to attend there or many other great schools. Like some posters have already said, it may just come down to a "gut feeling" issue. There's probably no right nor wrong. You child will adapt and probably wrap themselves around whichever institution -- they're phenomenal after all.</p>

<p>Go Blue! (I had to sneak that in here!)</p>

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<p>Nope. There is very little "reshuffling." It's relatively rare for a Harvard undergrad to switch residence colleges. </p>

<p>Like the schools themselves, the similarities between Harvard's and Yale's residence college systems are much greater than their differences.</p>

<p>The reshuffling occurs at the end of freshman year when kids form groups and are shipped off to different houses. If your fifth-best dorm friend isn't in your block, the chances are that she won't be in the same house as you are. At Yale, everyone is either living in his or her college, or living among the freshmen for his or her college and hanging out there on weekends. So everyone stays with the same group of people, and living among the same upperclassmen that they've already met..</p>

<p>So the big difference is between being with the same group for 3 years instead of 3?</p>

<p>I can understand the greater competitiveness of Harvard students in their ECs.
Still, given that H and Y attract the same kind of students, wouldn't it be the case that the students would be equally competitive at both? Or is there something in the H water? S does not seem to have drunk it. He's always been totally uninterested in competition, so I may be getting a distorted view.</p>

<p>But to get back to the original issue:</p>

<p>As many have said, there isn't a huge difference between H and Y; and anyone accepted at either should be very happy there. A student can only attend one, after all.</p>

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<p>If you 5th-best friend isn't in your block it's your own fault, since blocking groups can be as large as eight.</p>

<p>Seriously guys, this isn't helping the OP. Housing is fine, both places.
I'm with T26E4. </p>

<p>The OP and his daughter are leaning toward Harvard, and I'm thinking they are probably right to choose it- for them. She is an international student. Harvard's name probably goes farther where she's from. Harvard is a serious place, and I have a feeling this is a pretty serious girl with some pretty ambitious goals. Just a hunch.
Havard has Cambridge, which may seem a bit more student friendly than New Haven, from a dad's point of view. And, last but not least, Harvard is giving them more money.
4 good reasons. Harvard's a great school, a world famous university- and I can't see any reason to doubt their choice.</p>

<p>Oops:</p>

<p>Just saw that I should have said "3 instead of 4."</p>

<p>S has friends who are blissfully happy at H, Y and M, where, it seems, the majority of his friends seem to end up.</p>

<p>Often it's the same pool of kids. Sometimes one initially prefers Harvard but gets into Yale. Sometimes one initially prefers Yale but gets into Harvard. Some, like the OP's child, get to choose. My hunch is that most would end up happy at either school.</p>

<p>Oh, and as for blocking groups at Harvard - not only can you join a co-ed group of eight friends (from your dorm or very often from E.C.s), you can also link with another eight and have them in the house next door. Another great way to expand your circle of friends.</p>

<p>That being said, it's nice not to have to deal with blocking at all at Yale.</p>

<p>My daughter is a junior at Yale. I think it's absolutely true that there is a lot of camraderie there for undergraduates. Partly it's the residential college system and partly it's that the kids don't disperse off campus during the weekend. It fosters a social climate when there is less to do in the surrounding area. The students are very supportive of each other and help each other out. That said, my daughter has friends who are very happy at Harvard.</p>

<p>ASAP: Of course "housing" is fine both places. I wasn't talking about housing. I was talking about the core social institutions of both colleges. It's an important part of the experience at each, and it's also a source of an interesting difference.</p>

<p>There aren't all that many interesting differences: Cambridge. Bigger graduate programs, and bigger professional schools. Cambridge. Math. Cambridge. Residential colleges. International name recognition. Music and drama schools. That's really about it. You can sneer all you want, but I would bet that a huge percentage of the 40% of kids who choose Yale over Harvard would cite the residential college / house system difference as one of their primary decision points. Almost as huge a percentage as the percentage of the 60% of kids who choose Harvard over Yale and who would cite the comparative attractiveness of Cambridge and Boston vs. New Haven as the reason for their decision.</p>

<p>I'm not sneering, believe me. The residential colleges at Yale are far more than a place to live. They're homes, complete with their own dining halls, libraries, lobbies, exercise rooms, funds for activities, traditions, etc. etc. - As a Yale parent, I appreciate all that. They do create a very special atmosphere, and the kids are fiercly loyal to their houses.<br>
But Harvard's system is ok. A bit more basic perhaps, but I think they are much better than they were years ago. I just don't believe the OP will weigh the differences in residential life that heavily, even if he understood it. The differences are so unmeasurable. But the money, the location, the name, the assurance that his daughter is going to the most famous university in the country, will weigh a lot. If I were in his place, with my kid on another continent, I might feel the same way.</p>

<p>My kid didn't apply to Harvard, and fell in love with Yale at Bulldog days.
His daughter won't have the opportunity to visit - I just sense that if she doesn't pick Harvard, the OP will always feel she's missing something. But maybe I'm reading him wrong.</p>

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<p>^^Perfectly true.</p>

<p>The residential colleges at Harvard are far more than a place to live. They're homes, complete with their own dining halls, libraries, lobbies, exercise rooms, funds for activities, traditions, etc. etc. - As a Harvard parent, I appreciate all that. They do create a very special atmosphere, and the kids are fiercly loyal to their houses.</p>

<p>^^Also perfectly true. As I said, the similarities are much greater than the differences.</p>

<p>When my son decided on Harvard after applying EA, and I became aware of some of the stereotypes the OP is concerned about (the notion that Yale is beter for undergrads, that kids are happier, etc.) I got very nervous. I started to think he should reconsider keeping his Yale ap afloat, and visit again. However, my son, for whatever odiosyncratic reasons, said Yale just didn't suit him, and he held firm to his decision.</p>

<p>All I can say is, for him, his gut was right. And, as a sophomore, he finds himself amongst a most supportive group of friends (he blocked with 8--the same kids he continuously hung out with as a freshman), has traveled with them, stayed at their homes on opposite coasts, and had them here at our house. He has found much support from profs, TA's and other advisors, and will be spending his second summer in Cambridge doing research (which he has also done throughout the last 2 terms.) He is Op-Ed director of the Harvard Democrats and plays club tennis when time permits. Needless to say, he is a busy (but happy) kid. He is also working very hard academically.</p>

<p>I will agree that Harvard is much less "rah-rah" than Yale. There just isn't that sports related school spirit...kids, I think, are more into their own social circles, EC's, academics, etc. (There's more of a sense of spirit connected to one's house). So, if the sports/school spirit is important to a student, I think that Yale would be the better fit.</p>

<p>Harvard and Yale are more alike than they are different. Yet, there are differences. Here are a few:</p>

<p>The percentage of students at Harvard who are pre-med is twice the percentage of pre-meds at Yale. Pre-meds tend to worry more about GPA's than other students. </p>

<p>The percentage of students at Harvard who major in humanities is one-half the percentage of students who major in humanities at Yale. </p>

<p>In my opinion, Harvard "feels" more competitive than Yale because of these differences. If the OP's child is a <em>star</em> in math or the physical sciences, I recommend Harvard. It really is much stronger than Yale in these fields. On the flip side, for the student who is good enough to get into Harvard and Yale, but not really a <em>star</em> in math and physical science but wants to major in them, I suggest Yale. It's a smidge less competitive. For the student who wants to major in biology, but isn't all that strong in chemistry, physics and math---advantage Yale. </p>

<p>Student life at Harvard tends to center around Boston/Cambridge. Student life and Yale centers around Yale. Again, this is a matter of choice. At Harvard, male students in particular are just as likely to head off to a Friday night party at MIT as one at Harvard. Many male Harvard students also head to Wellesley. There are other colleges in New Haven...but few Yalies socialize with the kids at U of New Haven or Southern Connecticut State. So, yes, to this extent, there is more "bonding" at Yale. Yalies' student life centers on campus in part because New Haven just isn't as conducive to off-campus partying as Cambridge. Yale also puts fewer restrictions on social life. At Harvard, any party for more than 20 students--or some such #--must be registered. There are more than 20 students watching popular TV shows or Monday Night Football in regular old common rooms in dorms at Yale. </p>

<p>International students: Advantage Harvard. Harvard's International Student Organization is superior to Yale's. It just is. Flip side: if you are that rare international who would really prefer to make some American friends--advantage Yale. Just my personal observation--anyone can disagree--but most international students at Harvard spend most of their free time with other internationals. There are fewer parties and other organized activities for internationals at Yale. The consequence of this is that more international students at Yale participate in activities which aren't limited to international students. But some internationals at Yale look at all the different programs and activities Harvard offers internationals and think they should have gone to Harvard. </p>

<p>The "word": This is just rumor--also known as "the word." The "flavor" at Harvard is "high school student body president." The "flavor" at Yale is high school all-state orchestra. I hope you will understand what I mean.</p>

<p>About housing: At Yale, you are randomly assigned to a residential college before freshman year, but students assigned to 10 of the 12 colleges spend freshman year living in Old Campus. At Harvard, all freshmen live in Harvard Yard. You are assigned to a house as a sophomore, but you enter the housing lottery for sophomore year as a freshman with a group of friends--up to 8 friends--who enter the lottery together. Yale has a lottery for housing, but you usually stay in the same residential college you were assigned to freshman year. The advantage of the Harvard system is that you can always live with the closest friend you make freshman year. At Yale, if your best friend is in a different college, you can't live together unless one of you applies to transfer colleges--and there's no guarantee you'll succeed. If, however, you don't make really good friends your first year, it's really, really hard at Harvard. Everyone who enters a Harvard house as a sophomore enters as part of a group of people up to 8. So, should you have some falling out with your group as a sophomore at Harvard, it's really, really hard to find another group within the same college to live with. At Yale, it's a lot easier because everyone entered as freshmen as individuals and not as part of a group. It's a LOT more common at Yale than at Harvard to switch roommates as a junior. Again, I hope that makes sense. </p>

<p>Your daughter really can't go wrong. Let her visit and choose for herself. </p>

<p>And anyone who thinks I'm off-base is free to attack this post.</p>

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<p>Actually, I'd say it's a lot more Harvard/Cambridge than Boston. I'm continually amazed (actually more like appalled) at how seldom D and her friends cross the river to take advantage of the many attractions of Boston.</p>

<p>I agree with coureur. I also think that it is not difficult to make close friends because many are made through ECs and special interests. True, you may not live with them, but who says inbreeding is a good thing. The school can be about more than one residential college.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I will agree that Harvard is much less "rah-rah" than Yale. There just isn't that sports related school spirit...kids, I think, are more into their own social circles, EC's, academics, etc. (There's more of a sense of spirit connected to one's house). So, if the sports/school spirit is important to a student, I think that Yale would be the better fit.

[/quote]
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<p>Your description of Yale as a rah-rah sports school is completely wrong.
If someone wants that type of school, Yale would be a poor choice. You'll find Yale kids at the theater or a concert where their friend are performing.</p>

<p>Jonri - I think your post is quite accurate.</p>

<p>Jonri -- really great post. I agree with A.S.A.P. -- don't go to Yale for sports. The Harvard-Yale game is a big event for both schools but, other than that, I never hear about kids going to any sporting events. One slight advantage of Yale is that New York City is doable by train. My daughter's residential college has a culture draw ever semester and so she's seen opera and theater in the city, at no cost. At this point, she has a nice familiarity with NYC but I wouldn't consider that any kind of advantage -- just wanted to point out that there is a big city that can be accessed.</p>

<p>Last year Harvard had to hire a "fun czar" - take from that what you will.</p>