<p>My son is rethinking his EA plans and thinks now he might apply to Yale instead of Harvard. For purposes of this thread, can we put aside the "he doesn't stand a snowball's chance, etc." since, yes, we know both schools are ridiculously competitive. However, you still can only apply to one EA and assuming he has some chance, I wanted a parent's perspective on the two schools. He loved both schools when he visited, but upon reflection thinks Yale may be a better, happier experience overall. Anyone have any feelings on the differences between the two schools, has anyone's child told them anything about their "happiness" level at either school? He thinks Harvard was his first choice because "it's Harvard" but if you put aside the name, he thinks Yale might a better fit.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>...but if you put aside the name, he thinks Yale might a better fit.<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>I think you answered your own questions right there. If Yale is a better fit, go for it.</p>
<p>But if he still wants to consider Harvard, I can tell you that, tiresome stereotypes not withstanding, there are many, many very happy kids at Harvard who love their school and are very pleased with their college experience. My daughter and her roommates are among them.</p>
<p>Ditto what Coureur said: if Yale is a better fit, go for it. S is very happy at H also.</p>
<p>What I was hoping for -- I wasn't very clear this morning -- was from the parents of students at both schools to discuss their happiness levels. Especially those at Harvard, since he's now convinced that Harvard students are miserable. So if your kids are happy at either school, I'd love some more specifics. He knows you'll get an excellent education at either school, so he's now focusing on the intangible "experience" of living at either school.</p>
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He thinks Harvard was his first choice because "it's Harvard"
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<p>Not a good reason to choose a school. Probably one of the worse because if the school does not live up to the student's perceived expectation, then the kid is not going to be happy. Keep in mind that there are a number of students at Harvard simply because it is Harvard so "happieness" may not even factor in to the equation</p>
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So if your kids are happy at either school, I'd love some more specifics.
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<p>The only problem with this is that parents can only speak antecdotally to their ovn kid's situation (good/bad) at any school. The experience wil vary from person to person. </p>
<p>For someone who feels that their kid is having a miserable time there, does it negate the thousands of ohter students that are enjoying their time there or vice versa. If the parent that talks about their kids experience is has nothing in common with your kid, it is not going to do much to say that your kid will feel the same way.</p>
<p>I agree with Sybbie. Whether a student is happy at College X depends so much on the student. For example, my S is not one for "school spirit" and much prefers small gatherings to big rah rah events. So the fact that many Harvard students have decried the lack of a student center and a shortage of campus-wide activities is of no relevance to him. Without knowing more about a specific student's interests or personality, I could not even begin to predict whether a student would be happy at a particular school.<br>
Sybbie is also correct in thinking that many students entertain exaggerated expectations of Harvard. I can say that my S's housing situation is less than ideal. It bothers me more than it does him.</p>
<p>My D thought that Yale was a better fit, too, not that it wound up mattering. Yale has a rep of placing more weight on undergrad education. I've even had someone with connections to both schools say "Yale for undegrad, Harvard for grad...and NOT in the reverse order.</p>
<p>But to be autocontrarian, the Harvard grads I know all seem to have gotten out of Harvard exactly what you'd expect and I've never heard any misgivings [from this relatively small sample size] along the lines that they wish they'd gone somewhere else.</p>
<p>I am going to describe what I perceive as actual differences between the two colleges. Others are free to chime in that I am "all wet." </p>
<p>*"The happiness quotient." In Greene's book "The Select" or "Inside the Top Colleges," which is NOT a campus guide, but nevertheless an interesting study of life at 20 top colleges, he surveys kids at these colleges and asks a few questions. One is essentially "Would you come here if you had it to do over again?"--that's not the exact wording, but the gist--asked of graduating seniors. The results are broken down by gender and ethnicity. Of all those surveyed, Harvard males gave the most emphatic yes. Only 2% would choose another college. (I may be out a .1 or so, but it was in that ball park.) That was the lowest percentage of either sex at any of the 20 colleges surveyed. H females were less thrilled--something like 16% of them would go elsewhere. At Yale, about 10% said they would, and while I don't remember the exact break down, it was basically the same response from males and females. Personally, I think there were lots of problems with Greene's survey and it's a few years old--around 1998 or so, I think. Still, I think it's better data than one person's observations. He also asked what 3 changes the students would make. Yalies big gripe was the condition of the dorms. Yale has been renovating one residential college a year and most are done now, so I suspect it would do better on that score now than it did back then. (The area around the Yale campus is also nicer now than back when the survey was done.)</p>
<p>I'd recommend looking at the charts. It will give you only limited information, but it's interesting info.</p>
<p>*the dorms. Y has residential colleges. H has houses. The biggest difference is that you are assigned to one BEFORE your first year at Y. Most frosh live on Old Campus first year, but they know which college they will be in and participate in college events. Houses have no impact on frosh year at H. After that, you enter a housing lottery with a group of up to 8 peope who want to live togeter. That lottery results in assignment to a house. Many students prefer the H system. At Y, it is quite possible that you will be unable to room with your closest friend simply because they are in another college. I prefer the Y system. I dislike the fact that at H you enter the house with a group of friends as a sophomore. I think that this results in less social cohesion within the houses at H than in the colleges at Y. It also enables big groups of athletes to live together in one house. 8 frosh lacrosse players, for example, can enter the housing lottery together. At Y, it's easier to live off campus as a junior or senior than at H. While few people do, athletes in certain sports are among those most likely to do this. If all the crew guys want to live together, they can ONLY do this if they live off campus. Some Y athletes really resent this, but, frankly, I think it's better for BOTH the athletes and other students the way it works at Y with the athletes on any particular team scattered among houses. Athletes are more likely to make friends who aren't jocks and no one has to live in a house/college in which there are 8 team members living together. I also prefer the Y system because if you have a falling out with your roommates --or simply don't want to live with them again--Y's system makes it easier to find new ones within your college. In any event, my anecdotal impression is that it's more common for H students in any particular group--a varsity team, newspaper, orchestra, mock trial, etc., --to live 24/7 with the other students in that group. At Y, because of the random assignment to colleges, students with different courses of studies and ECs are more likely to become friends or at least get to know each other. Note: yes, there are some groups of friends at H that are really diverse; I'm just saying that when 8 crew members or 8 orchestra members begin living together soph year in a college, they are less likely to reach out and make friends with others than at Y where they are randomly assigned as individuals to colleges as frosh. </p>
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<li>feel. Probably the biggest difference between H and Y is the kind of student they attract. The percentage of pre-meds is twice as high at H as it is at Y most years. The percentage of humanities majors at Y is twice as high as it is at H.(My source for this is old, but it is Harvard Magazine, and I don't think it's changed much in more recent years.) Personally, I think that makes H end up feeling more "competitive," because pre-meds at ANY college tend to end up being the most competitive, grade-grubbing students. Some H kids I know who aren't pre-med says it really doesn't affect them--they aren't in the same classes and they make a point of not including any pre-meds in their groups in the housing lottery. So, this is just my perception.</li>
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<p>I'll write more later....</p>
<p>Jonri:</p>
<p>The info about housing at Yale and female students at H may be skewed by the date. In the early 90s Yale had a deficit and let maintenance lag. I remember articles about cutting down on lawn mowing and window-washing! Things have much improved since then. In 1998, Radcliffe had just merged with Harvard (finally) which made many women unhappy. Again, I expect things have changed there as well.</p>
<p>If the poll cited above is the one I think it is, the results are not tabulated until over 50% of the students respond. It is not based on a small sample, though if scientifically sampled, would be just as valid.</p>
<p>We have a friend whose kid is at Yale and loves it. There is a great deal of school spirit and the way they arrange the housing system makes for a string sense of community.</p>
<p>Typically, the COFHE surveys engage approximately 60% of the respective student bodies, are paid for by the schools themselves, and taken very, very seriously by administrators (they take them a lot more seriously than USNWR, especially at a place like H. where, being ranked 27th among only 31 schools, which doesn't even include some of the other prestige institutions, is no laughing matter.)</p>
<p>The most relevant part of the survey, as regards academics:</p>
<p>"On the five-point scale, Harvard students gave an average score of 2.92 on faculty availability, compared to an average 3.39 for the other COFHE schools. Harvard students gave a 3.16 for quality of instruction, compared to a 3.31 for the other schools, and a 2.54 for quality of advising in their major, compared to 2.86 for the other schools."</p>
<p>Quality of life scores were equally low:</p>
<p>"Students gave Harvard a 2.62 for social life on campus, compared to a 2.89 for the other schools, and a 2.53 for sense of community, compared to 2.8."</p>
<p>The satisfaction gap has existed since before 1994.</p>
<p>I have a bias towards Harvard, having gone there. :-) I'd choose Boston over New Haven any day! But more to the point. I had a Harvard student as an intern with me this spring, and I was impressed by his wide variety of activities, his curiosity and his general niceness. He seemed pretty relaxed, well he'd just handed in his undergrad thesis, and was planning to take a year off before grad school in architecture. </p>
<p>I think there are real advantages to Harvard's house system, though they don't have nearly the personalities they did in my day, when the system was less random. I think the nature of suites means that it's critical to have a group of friends in the houses. The architecture of entryways doesn't encourage alot of casual socializing in the halls. </p>
<p>Another thing he might want to look at is the quality of the specific departments he's interested in. I had a friend who studied Art History as an undergrad at Harvard and a grad student at Yale. They were completely different in approach. Harvard was all about connoisseurship, Yale tend to look at the social issues. She loved the Yale approach. I imagine similar situations exist in other departments.</p>
<p>Back in my day, Yalies worked harder during the week and partied harder on the weekends. Harvard kids tended to get involved in activities during the term and then did a lot of catching up during reading period. Those stereotypes may or may not still exist. He should go to the place that seems like a better fit, but also realize that a short visit, even an overnight is still limited information.</p>
<p>An off thread topic aside: Must be nice to have a whole week for reading. My S gets 2 days for reading, and so far two profs have used those days to schedule more time for finals since the they felt the regularly scheduled time was not enough.</p>
<p>My D had Yale as her EA first choice school. We did the junior year east coast trip and both came away thinking Yale was just a friendlier place than Harvard. She was accepted to both. We did the east coast trip again spring break of senior year and came away with a much better opinion of Harvard. The difference was the information session people and the tour guide. By the time admitted students weekends were over at both places, it was Harvard hands down. She didn't want to spend 4 years with Yale's inferiority complex about Harvard. I know some will say it isn't so, but the entire admitted students weekend seemed to her to be a Harvard bashing session at Yale. At Harvard, there was no mention of Yale other than "The Game" and how much fun it is. Harvard was all about Harvard, Yale was about why they are better than Harvard. Don't base your opinion on a single weekend or visit if possible. </p>
<p>D is now finishing her first year at Harvard and is still happy and involved. She was recently recruited to cox the light crew boat (no prior experience) and is loving it. As to access to faculty, she has had Mansfield for government in a relatively small class, Jamaica Kincaid for literature (loves her), and others that she raves about. In her class on the middle east, the managing editor of the Boston Globe sat on one side and someone from the 9/11 commission sat on the other side all semester. They weren't students, they just wanted to hear the professor. That professor will be at Yale next year. You really can't go wrong with either of these great schools. Just don't buy into the Harvard bashing from the Yalies.</p>
<p>About the survey data, remember, if they were easy to please, they wouldn't be at Harvard:)</p>
<p>The only thing I know about Yale is what we were told on the admissions tour, and it looks and sounds like a terrific school. But since any given student can very likely only go to one for undergrad, direct comparisons are impossible.</p>
<p>But as I said, My D loves it at Harvard. She has a great group of very smart, very helpful, and very witty friends and roommates. I have met many of them myself and concur with her assessment of them. She loved her frosh dorm and now is devoted to her House. She plays a lot of intramural sports. She goes to the dances and concerts and occasionally a party. She learns a lot in her challenging courses taught by great professors. The stereotypes nothwithstanding, she has found her classmates to be far more helpful cooperative than competitive. She plays her bassoon in one H orchestra and percussion in another. She thinks Boston is a fun and vibrant town. She enjoys being surrounded by all that history -- e.g. she lived in the same freshman dorm that John Adams did in the 1740 and now lives in the same House that John Kennedy did in the 1930s. And every year she gets really wound up in the school sprit when Harvard beats Yale in the football game. What's not to love?</p>
<p>There is a wealth of information and commentary about both of these schools on this site. Search the Yale and Harvard posts and you'll find detailed stories going back several years. Byerly will tell you that the vast majority of common admits choose Harvard. Yale students will tell you that they are the happiest in the country. </p>
<p>My daughter is at Yale, she didn't apply to Harvard for some of the reasons you'll read about. For her, it was all about the students she happened to meet during visits...their energy and enthusiasm for their studies and for life in general. It was a great personality match. </p>
<p>She's a rising senior, loves her school, has made wonderful friendships and has had tremendous opportunities academically she never dreamed of. For two summers she has received grants to study in South America on Yale's nickel, (we're a full-pay family) and she has been mentored by some of the biggest names in her field. She's very eager to continue her studies, and, as you might have guessed, Harvard is now on her list of possibilities for grad school.</p>
<p>My daughter will be the first to admit that for grad school, Harvard is in a class by itself. On the other hand, she's so glad she went to Yale!
I'm not sure I understand it ( my H's and my choice for her was Princeton... she wouldn't appy there either) but she feels that Yale provides the perfect balance between work and play. Sometimes a place just clicks with a student, and it's not really rational.</p>
<p>My son has really enjoyed his freshman year at Harvard. I believe one reason is the brilliant job they did assigning roommates. Classes have been challenging and for the most part enjoyable; his freshman seminar was particularly good. He continued with his main high school EC and his former nemeses are now his friends and teammates. He also enjoys IM sports and seems to have struck a nice balance of work and play.</p>
<p>The problem, as someone noted, is that you cannot attend more than one school at a time, so there is no real possibility of meaningful comparison and other people's experiences will not be yours. Go to the school you think you will be happiest at and chances are you will be. Both are great schools.</p>