<p>Sux2BUCuzUNotMe, you joined this board less than a week ago and 9 out of your 13 posts have been in the Michigan forum. Why do you care so much if you currently attend Notre Dame (just curious... I'm not being mean)?</p>
<p>"As a counterpoint, you shouldn't be bringing that up to a catholic university person"</p>
<p>I don't see why I shouldn't. Plus, I don't think you have enough evidence to say that ND has more graduates going to do service in etc. compared to Michigan grads.
And your comments about the correlation between leaders and money and relating service as a sign of leadership don't add up.</p>
<p>"As a counterpoint, you shouldn't be bringing that up to a catholic university person...we have at least 10% of our graduates every year going on to do service in the form of Peace Corp., ACE, Teach for America, etc...so I don't think U of M is anywhere near that."</p>
<p>As a devout Catholic myself, I can tell you that you are wrong. The number of Michigan students who join the Peace Corp exceeds that of Notre Dame, even if you adjust for size. Last year, 162 Michigan students joined the Peace Corp, compared to 48 from Notre Dame. You do realize that the Peace Corp was first proposed by JFKat the steps of the University of Michigan Student Union right?</p>
<p>Most of my posts are on U of M boards because there is more debate on them. More students, more questions, more opportunities to explore stuff. I'm not trying at all to spur mean debate--as I said--but I do like to hear different perspectives about U of M.</p>
<p>With regard to the Forbe's study...I do think that a study like that would be quite comprehensive. Sure, there are widespread problems with any rankings list, but I would say that Forbe's is one of THE authorities on financial stuff (along with having a great reputation). Not saying it is perfect...but nothing is!</p>
<p>And I'm sure U of M has more in the Peace Corp. (even proportionally to ND) but that is mostly because of ACE (Alliance for Catholic Education) and other such religious programs that attract ND students. 10% of an entire graduating class is pretty legit though...come on now.</p>
<p>I've been intrigued by all this stuff but I really have to get back to CPA studying...if there's more compelling arguments then I'll chime in but good talking to ya'll!</p>
<p>Sux2BU, the Forbes study is not legit. Michigan Engineers and BBAs outearn Notre Dame Engineers and BBAs (by 10%) coming out of college. And for Forbes to be accurate, Notre Dame's Arts and Sciences majors earn more than Engineers and BBAs comingout of college. Something does not add up.</p>
<p>Michigan's BBA's only outearn in the fields of finance (by a slim margin) because of the high New York contingence from U of M who migrates back east for i-banking jobs. Regardless, you need to understand that business students coming out of college (accounting and finance especially) are going to make essentially the same. Especially in public accounting, where an ND grad (our program is ranked better than U of M's in most rankings) will make the exact same as a U of M grad, MSU, or even Eastern Michigan grad. That's just how it is. With finance, U of M may send more students to i-banking jobs (it has a better finance program) but regardless, tons of ND students do that too. My sister was ND and works at Goldman Sachs now...they all start out at the same salary...give or take a $500 bonus etc...</p>
<p>But that is what is great about the Forbe's ranking. If you scrutinized it, you would see that it talks about salaries 10-20 years down the road (where you need to have good work ethic and determination...an ND or U of M pedigree doesn't matter as much at that point). This disregards starting salaries because of reasons like my aforementioned point on accounting salaries being essentially non-negotiable. A person could start out at $100,000 and quit two years later on account of the job being too hard. It is the person who is making $100,000+ 10 years later that is the real deal.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Michigan's BBA's only outearn in the fields of finance (by a slim margin) because of the high New York contingence from U of M who migrates back east for i-banking jobs. Regardless, you need to understand that business students coming out of college (accounting and finance especially) are going to make essentially the same. Especially in public accounting, where an ND grad (our program is ranked better than U of M's in most rankings) will make the exact same as a U of M grad, MSU, or even Eastern Michigan grad. That's just how it is. With finance, U of M may send more students to i-banking jobs (it has a better finance program) but regardless, tons of ND students do that too. My sister was ND and works at Goldman Sachs now...they all start out at the same salary...give or take a $500 bonus etc...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Question: If you really wanted to pursue accounting, why did you transfer to Notre Dame and pay the extra tuition bucks when you could have studied in state at UM Ross? After all, isn't an accounting degree worth the same no matter where you go? In that case, you should've gone to Eastern Michigan!!</p>
<p>Ha...you're absolutely right. The same can be said about any expensive private school; however, U of M out-of state-tuition is only $3,500 less than ND's so the different is relatively minute for most people. I transferred because I didn't get into ND initially...but if you've ever had a "dream school"--whether it be U of M, Eastern, or ND--it sometimes doesn't matter about the tuition and subsequent debt. Besides, prestige does matter in many instances. A degree from ND (in most circles) means a lot, as does a BBA from Ross Business School. Either way, you'll go places in the business world by virtue of that...and I just chose to spend more getting there ha.</p>
<p>Oh, and lastly...Ross was a lot more of a pain 5 years ago when I was a freshman. It was still a two year program and all those students who didn't get in after sophomore year were relegated to Economics (personally...eww). I had a 3.86 after freshman year and was not even positive I would get in (being a white male...especially back in those controversial "affirmative action" days at U of M). Also, studying abroad was paramount to me and Ross was so structured that it wasn't possible back then. Nowadays Ross has a much better system...but I have no regrets!</p>
<p>The "Forbes" study as you call it, Sux is not by Forbes. From the first paragraph of the article:</p>
<p>"Big Green grads are in the money. So says a recent study compiled by PayScale.com that looks at earnings of alumni at colleges around the country."</p>
<p>Go to Payscale.com and you'll see their methodology was self selecting:</p>
<p>"All data used to produce the Education Package were collected from employees who successfully completed PayScale's employee survey."</p>
<p>Limited:</p>
<p>"Bachelors Only: Only employees who possess a Bachelor's degree and no higher degree are included. Those Bachelors graduates who continue their education and earn a Master's degree, MBA, MD, JD, PhD, or other advanced degree are not included.</p>
<p>For some liberal arts, Ivy League, and highly selective schools, graduates with higher degrees can represent a significant fraction of all graduates.</p>
<p>Careers that require advanced degrees, such as in law or medicine, are not included."</p>
<p>The difference between the salary of a Berkeley (#1) graduate and a Michigan (#17) graduate is all of $7,700 a year at start of their careers.</p>
<p>Last, look at the study to see what types of degrees/majors are included: almost all engineering, science, math. When you delve into it, it's a much more limited study and findings than the headline would lead you to believe.</p>
<p>You might have learned how to look behind the headlines and do some serious analysis if you'd stayed in Michigan. By the way, I didn't see Notre Dame anywhere in the findings.</p>
<p>Valid point...but Notre Dame (as far as acceptance goes) is much more selective than U of M (as evidenced by the 24% v. 50% acceptance rate). Either way, U of M and ND would be in the same boat of not having all of their graduates being accounted for. And then, come to think of it, are you saying that the Ivies don't have grads that go on to get graduate degrees? Sorry, but since most of them don't have undergraduate business schools, I kind of thought that going to grad school after an Ivy undergrad was the norm (that was rhetorical...because it is true).</p>
<p>"You might have learned how to look behind the headlines and do some serious analysis if you'd stayed in Michigan. By the way, I didn't see Notre Dame anywhere in the findings."</p>
<p>Interesting you should talk about someone not doing his/her due-diligence...because if you had looked a little more you would have seen that you were referring to the Public School list. The consolidated one (which has the top public school, Cal, not even in the top 10) is as follows :
1. Darmouth
2. Princeton
3. Stanford
4. Yale
5. MIT
6. Harvard
7. Penn
8. NOTRE DAME</p>
<p>Prima facie, the list looks pretty legit (with all the Ivies logically being there)...so any questions?</p>
<p>Why the heck are we still talking about the money issue?</p>
<p>Well, close, sux. ND is in the Forbes article, but isn't listed in the Payscale study on their site which I was talking about. Presumably, Forbes got it's information from Payscale, so I'll give you the point that it's there in the photo section as no 7 after 10 to 20 years. If you're still posting then, let us know how it turned out.</p>
<p>cbpeanut, I think money is a fair criteria amongst others to talk about, albeit on other grounds. It didn't mean a damn to me back in the 60s when I was in college, but as a parent and in today's world it is important.</p>
<p>My other child goes to Colgate (#5 and the first non- ivy in the Forbes article). As I've said often before over at the Colgate forum, I am constantly amazed and delighted at the effort Colgate puts in to having students get great internships during college and jobs afterwards. And its alumni network is amazingly strong, loyal and supportive of grads coming out.</p>
<p>We can say all we want about academic values and pure study for its own sake, but after four years most graduates today are going to be looking for jobs and ways to pay back all the money they borrowed. Those who go on to graduate or professional school are only putting that off for a few years. When deciding where to attend, job placement and reputation shouldn't be overlooked.</p>
<p>And anyway it was fun to razz sux.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You might have learned how to look behind the headlines and do some serious analysis if you'd stayed in Michigan. By the way, I didn't see Notre Dame anywhere in the findings.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No worries, it's a troll. This isn't someone who attends Notre Dame, UM, or anywhere else. Seems like every other month we get someone on these forums who feels a compelling need to constantly troll about whatever obscure rankings they can find. I'm tempted to guess it's the same person, with a different cover story every time. I don't think you can take a poster whose handle is "Sux2BUCuzUNotMe" who joined 2 days ago and all of whose posts are in this forum seriously at all.</p>
<p>you guys fuss over rankings so much when you could be doing something more useful. </p>
<p>i am selling my life to physics and music auditions for the next few weeks.</p>
<p>(i got ripped off as i'm not receiving any money for the sale)</p>
<p>...</p>
<p>(maybe if i went to a top x school i would have gained some more money)</p>
<p>Ok Rudy, we get your love for ND
Now go walk in for the Fighting Irish.</p>
<p>tranandy--</p>
<p>I know this seems off topic but does the tran part of your username mean transsexual?
if so, what's up my little tranny ladyboy? ;O
if not... sorry about the inconvenience!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Originally by Sux2 (post #16)
[/quote]
All I was saying is that the numbers don't lie...a 50% admission rate?!?! I don't take the rankings from US News as gospel either ... but ya'll have been slipping for a while.
[/quote]
Slipping? U-M's acceptance rate has always been around 50%. And since you mentioned US News, its measure for selectivity is the "Selectivity Rank":</p>
<p>Cornell: 14
Notre Dame: 14
Cal Berkeley: 14
Michigan: 18
Johns Hopkins: 21
UCLA: 21
UVa: 28
UNL: 34</p>
<p>Cal/UCLA's low acceptance rates are helped by the UC's centralized admission process which allows you to apply to all the UC campuses with no additional effort. And many do ... Cal Berkeley received more than 44,000 applications last year!</p>
<p>I am pretty ambivalent about spending much of my professional time chasing down information related to USNews and its problematic methodology. However, the University can't wholly ignore these outcomes. Based on some initial analysis, I will say this much:</p>
<p>I'd rather be 26 and know we provided our responses as honestly and completely as we did, than to have done otherwise. Not every top-ranked school in USNews' various rankings can claim full integrity in data reporting. It may not have been for shady reasons, but some don't follow the directions or methodology to the same letter.</p>
<p>Excellent point Hoedown. Unfortunately, this is one case where honesty does not pay. Other schools are joining the common application, leveraging wait-lists, superscoring SATs, limiting class size etc... to look better in the rankings. </p>
<p>In the end, it is the USNWR that is being irresponsible. It compiles data without setting clear guidelines. As such, they end up rewarding the liars and schools that act in a way consistent with their formula. Great for the smaller privates, bad for state schools.</p>
<p>To summarize, garbage in/garbage out.</p>