Ivy Alumni and Current Ivy Parents: What's the Real Deal on Class Size and T.A.s?

Parents Forum
41

<p>My daughter attends Brown. Many classes are small. There are some that are large. However, there are no required courses (other than for your concentration) at Brown and so you can take what you want and only take small classes if you prefer. All courses at Brown are taught by faculty members. None are taught primarily by a TA. However, a large course will break into sections led by TAs for discussion purposes. My D has taken a few of those but most of her classes have not been big. Currently, all of her classes have less than 20 students in them. Once, when she could not fit a class into her schedule, she was able to get a faculty member to supervise her doing it one to one as an independent study. That was last semester. This semester, her Honors Thesis is also one on one supervision by a faculty member. </p>

<p>Some of the larger classes at Brown are due to popularity, and in some cases, due to the professor. There is a popular professor who teaches Modern Architecture and the course takes all who want it, I believe, and may be in the hundreds. They break into sections, which are led by either a graduate TA or an undergraduate TA. My D is a senior and was selected to be a TA for this course and leads two sections. I have heard that students applaud the professor at the end of lectures. I recall when my own D took this class, the professor knew who she was enough to invite her project to be in a gallery showing he was curating. I feel my D has very close contact with professors at Brown and has only had professors for teachers, unless a smaller section led by a TA for discussion. Many of her classes are not big at all. And she gets to choose what to take as Brown has an open curriculum. Another poster on this thread mentioned a "Writing Workshop" that is not taught by a professor, but I am not familar with those or if they are regular courses. I know that Brown maintains that all undergraduate courses are taught by faculty members.</p>

42

<p>When I was in grad school at an Ivy, I taught some classes (seminars) all on my own. Even upper-level ones. Not all grad students got to do it, but I was happy for the opportunity and (if I say so myself, although my course evaluations back me up) I did a better job than some of the "names" on faculty. Having had some very famous names as professors myself, I can tell you that sometimes they live up to the hype and sometimes they don't. Very often they have interests that don't include teaching undergrads. (Remember, no one ever got tenure or became a leader in their field based upon their teaching.)</p>

<p>So, don't get upset when your child has a grad student TA (or even teacher) - it could be a great experience. (It might not, but the same goes for any professor.) </p>

<p>And as for the stats of "80%" of our classes have 20 or fewer students . . . Those big lectures count as one class with more than 20. Those 15 discussion sections attached to that lecture, count as 15 classes with less than 20. Think about it . . .</p>

43

<p>My Ivy kid does fine at the Ivy. I think his brother is getting a better education with much smaller classes and more knowledgeable teachers (full profs vs. TAs) at the LAC, something his Ivy brother could also benefit from --but is finding it harder to come by on a regular basis. Let me add: My Ivy kid is NOT smarter than his brother at the LAC --they are both pretty darn equivalent, down to the very subscales on their IQ tests, down to the very numbers. They give each other a run for the money at chess AND scrabble. One got in and the other did not --they're both equally gifted students. The boy at the LAC would ALSO do okay at the Ivy -- if he were there -- he's STILL getting a better education at his small liberal arts college.</p>

44

<p>marite</p>

<p>again I am speaking of more than 25 years ago, but I experienced no negatives from having only professors teaching. </p>

<p>My son in 2 days at Harvard has been shut out of more courses (Freshman seminars) than I was in 4 years at Dartmouth (0) and that does not take into account the course he tried to shop but could not because more than twice as many people showed up than would fit in the room.</p>

<p>Most of the larger courses at Dartmouth had relatively objective easy to grade examinations where department majors could pitch in under the supervision of the prof if needed. (Most math courses, courses with multiple choice exams, etc.) </p>

<p>As for those which did not fit into that category, I'm sorry but for an Ethics final something like "Compare and contrast the moral philosophies of Kant, Aristotle and Mill", I wanted my professor grading the exam. </p>

<p>With all of 8 hours a week spent in class teaching 2 courses - a professor should be able to suck it up and find the time and concentration necessary to grade even 105 exams.</p>

<p>FWIW: alumni concerns about some of these issues is at least part of what is driving the war that has erupted over the Board of Trustees makeup and election process.</p>

45

<p>TuTu
if you want only profs,you'll have to take your $50,000 a year to an LAC not to an Ivy,as they provide Graduate level education as well as undergraduate and therefore, will have TA's in residence.Chedva..you use the term "small university" in your reply..the term University means that institution is providing levels of education other than strictly undergraduate. Sooner or later, your child may have a TA.
I'm curious, those of you who don't favor the apprenticeship model of Graduate education being in place where undergrads are present...where are your Asst,Assoc Profs supposed to get their classroom training from?Do you expect them to be annointed with their PhD degree and then step foot in a classroom for the first time?Personally,I think this would be a worse option. Or is it okay for ABD's (all but dissertation level grad students) to teach at public universities or community colleges only,because you aren't spending your $50,000 a year there?
Do you expect the same of a student training to be a K-12 level teacher?Should they too be kept out of the classroom?
And to carry it further, how about your exalted MD's in training..you're paying good $$ to a hospital,do you expect not to be seen/treated by residents?</p>

46

<p>I''ve noticed my S never chooses classes based on size. It's just a non-issue for him, perhaps because Columbia's core means that all first and second year students are in at least one year-long discussion-based class. He picks courses that cover interesting material, and are offered by professors who get decent reviews on the student review site, or whom his friends recommend. (Columbia's Nobel Prize winner last year was teaching an undergrad econ class with the enrollment of nine at the time he was awarded the prize, probably because his student reviews described him as incredibly boring.) There are many opportunities at Columbia for seminars, supervised research, supervised reading, small classes, that my S mostly ignored until he began to move closer to feeling ready commit to a field.</p>

<p>He's also a TA. Besides grading papers, he works in the math help room. He's gotten good feedback on his work there, and he speaks a pretty good English, if I say so myself.:) I suspect that he does a good job at hearing what other undergrads are asking, as opposed to overwhelming them with more math than they will ever need to know to get through the first levels of Calc.</p>

<p>As for the LAC vs research university issue, it depends on the field as well as the kid. My S's had opportunities in physics, math, and computer science that he would not have found at an LAC. (My daughter, by the way, went to UCLA as an art major, and her studio classes were capped at 17. Even in large universities, there are often ways to find some individual attention if that's what a student wants.)</p>

47

<p>Odyssey:</p>

<p>The freshman seminars at Harvard illustrate the downsides of having small classes. I'm told that there are over 100 freshman seminars. But there are some that will appeal to students more than others. So with a cap at 12, there will be students who are shut out. It's the same with regular classes. Students are not limited to taking Justice to fulfill their Moral Reasoning requirement (my S did not), but every year, about 800 students sign up for it.</p>

<p>As I said, there are good and bad points about having TFs. My S1 at a LAC was shut out of classes that had caps of 30. That happened in his senior year and it was no fun (it had also happened before, but senior year was crucial). He was also in some classes that cried out for discussion but were too large for it. The prof tried; it did not work out.</p>

<p>Profs are in class 6-8 hours a week; but for every one of these lectures, they spend 20 hours preparing. So, yes, a prof can suck it up and grade 105 exams on his own--and my friend has done so. I have not asked him about the type of questions he has asked on his exams or the amount of comments he was able to make on each and every exam.</p>

48

<p>
[quote]
if you dont want TA's teaching your children then you must not send them to any institution that houses a Graduate School.You will be limited toostrictly undergrad institutions and thats ok,if thats the academic enviornment you choose. The mission of an institution with a Graduate School is to provide graduate level education and train those students in the "art" of the classroom. You can't expect to send your undergraduate to an institution WITH the mission of Graduate level education and not expect TA's in the classroom.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Most top research universities that I know (MIT, UC Berkeley, etc.) actually require all Ph.D. candidates to complete one or two semesters of teaching internship before graduation. As mentioned by another poster above, teaching training is considered part of a normal Ph.D. education.</p>

<p>Having said that, graduate TA's by no means replace professors in research universities. Professors usually teach lectures and also grade exams, whereas TA's teach recitations or labs and also grade homework. Both TA's and professors hold regular office hours to meet with students. </p>

<p>Keep in mind also that TA's in top universities are normally senior doctoral students who have already finished all their required graduate coursework and passed their Ph.D qualifying exams. In most cases, they are very knowledgeable in the subjects they are teaching.</p>

49

<p>I'd add to bruno123's point that many older profs never received any teacher training -- and it shows, whether in the way they lecture or the way they try to hold a class discussion. Advanced grad students who are hired to teach (not just to grade), may be supervised and helped with their teaching skills. For example, those teaching as part of Columbia's core attend weekly meetings to discuss the upcoming work. I notice that student reviews give gold and silver stars to grad students at least as often as to profs, and maybe more.</p>

50

<p>My son has been at Brown for almost 4 years now and many classes have been taught by TAs in his subject area --just TAs.</p>

51

<p>wow, it didn't take long for this to devolve into the standard, hoary, LACs vs research universities threads, did it?</p>

<p>I'm not sure the topic was queried with an agenda to start off with, but it sure set in quickly.</p>

<p>I'm just sayin....;)</p>

52

<p>
[quote]

With all of 8 hours a week spent in class teaching 2 courses - a professor should be able to suck it up and find the time and concentration necessary to grade even 105 exams.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>As I said before, they do ! Most professors actually grade exams, even though, in addition to "8 hours a week spent in class teaching 2 courses", they obviously have to prepare classes, do research, write and review papers, advise both graduate and undergraduate students, write and submit research grant proposals, do (unpaid) voluntary work for professional societies (e.g. serving as editorial board or conference committee members), and also sit in multiple internal committees in their own departments or universities.</p>

<p>It is really irritating that many people in the US are completely clueless about the amount of work involved in the daily routine of a typical professor in a research university and simply dismiss them as "lazy" or uncommitted to undergraduate education as the poster above implied !</p>

53

<p>Cathy,
As I said before, when an elite U presents their curriculum as having Profs in the classroom interacting closely w/ the undergrads, it is disingenuous to have TAs actually having total control of courses. I have no problem w/ TAs , if their role is one of “assisting.”</p>

<p>
[quote]
….is it okay for ABD's (all but dissertation level grad students) to teach at public universities or community colleges….

[/quote]
</p>

<p>By virtue of these schools being large public institutions – yes, I would expect the role of GAs/TAs to be much more broad. And these institutions aren’t claiming to have all of their classes being taught by professors.</p>

<p>Cathy - I think on this subject we will have to agree to disagree. :)</p>

54

<p>On grading issue: My son took 4 classes at Columbia as a visiting student. One was a small class taught and graded by a real prof. The rest were large classes taught by profs but with the TAs leading discussion and grading the papers. The classes were at an advanced level, and so, had graduate and undergraduate students in them. It is my understanding that the profs graded the graduate students. But I know for a fact that my son, an undergrad, was graded by the TA's. The TA's were great and taught him alot --but you are talking about an Ivy education here. </p>

<p>My other son, again taking similar subject matter at Vassar, is in smaller classes with well-known highly regarded profs who do all the teaching and discussion and grading themselves. </p>

<p>It is well worth asking what our students are getting at Ivy schools --and whether it really is better than other options. Honestly, I have concluded that the main benefit in many instances is the prestige, something I don't care much about. But this is hindsight. Also: My kid went into Brown planning on the sciences, and there Brown probably really is superior to most LACs. But he is coming out in the humanites, and there, I have to say --and I say this as a professional writer myself-- the LAC approach is far superior and gives you much more take-away.</p>

55

<p>Tutu
its not a question of agreeing or disagreeing..I'm not disagreeing with you.Just stating that if you want full professors only, you'll have to take your big bucks to the LAC level of higher education,where Graduate students are not present .The Ivy ,or elite level you speak of, may have graduate students present and therefore may not fit your desired style of undergrad education.You admit that you think its okay,by virtue of the public U being public, and therefore presumably not asking parents to shell out 50,000 a year or so,to hand over classroom control to a lesser entity,the TA.
Garland is right,it's come down to a discussion of elite vs private rather than the original intent of the thread.</p>

56

<p>A massive class at MIT but worth it, apparently:</p>

<p>"With students in 3.091 (Introduction to Solid-State Chemistry) outnumbering seats in 10-250, where the subject is traditionally taught, course administrators have decided to add live video streaming of the lectures in 26-100. There are currently 570 students enrolled in 3.091, but 10-250 only has 450 seats, according to Christopher D. DiGuardia of the Registrar’s Office."</p>

<p>Log on to this week's Tech for the full article. FYI-- we know kids who claim that taking chemistry with Donald Sadoway is a life-altering experience, so apparently the crowds know what they're doing and why they're shoving through the door to hear him lecture.</p>

<p>I think this whole discussion is silly. I took two massive lecture courses at Brown-- standing room only-- one with Sears Jayne on Shakespeare that had students sobbing by the end of the lectures, and one with John Rowe Workman in Classics, and they were eye-opening experiences. I had a seminar taught by two professors which had an enrollment of 5 students (now that's a ratio!) and graduated never even knowing that Brown had TA's. If I'd been a math major or studied Engineering, my experiences would have no doubt been different. But Engineering is a different beast than Shakespeare and requires a different learning model to be effective.</p>

57

<p>Here is Darmouth's response to the question</p>

<p>
[quote]
*Do graduate students teach at Dartmouth? *</p>

<p>When we asked Dean of Graduate Studies Charles Barlowe about this, he wrote, "Dartmouth faculty teach Dartmouth courses. Dartmouth is unique among the Ivies, in that we have PhD programs only in 9 of our 39 departments and programs, so this question only pertains to about 25 percent of our courses. Moreover, graduate students do not have full responsibility for courses, but as part of their graduate training many do serve as teaching assistants and contribute a great deal to undergraduate student learning.</p>

<p>"As teaching assistants, graduate students may lead discussion groups, oversee laboratory sections, meet with students in small groups to review materials before an exam, or work side by side with undergraduates on research projects - all under the direction of a faculty member." </p>

<p>The only exception to this is in mathematics, where advanced doctoral students serve as course lecturers with supervision from a faculty advisor under guidelines established many years ago by John Kemeny. Dartmouth's mathematics department is well known for preparing its graduate students for successful teaching careers through a training program established under President Kemeny.</p>

<p>Dean Barlowe also shared with us that each year, Dartmouth provides a teaching award to the graduate student who best exemplifies the qualities of a college educator. Many students are nominated for the award and the nomination letters often include comments from undergraduates. One student wrote, for example, "This course was a pleasant surprise. I did not expect to enjoy or understand organic chemistry. However, I found much more success that I anticipated. I think this was due the invaluable help and support and patience of the Teaching Assistant."</p>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Well, of course. Dartmouth does not have graduate students. Classes are capped at 55 for reason of space (that's what the largest classroom can accommodate).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Classes are capped according to the professor. </p>

<p>Last summer, my D took Engineering 3 as it is one of the few courses that fulfill the TAS distribution requirement and it is only given in the summer. When my D took this class, over 300 students registered for the course (I know this is no where near the 900 students in econ at Harvard) however, the professor broke the course down into 2 sections. He taught the course by himself. He broke down each class further into groups of 15 so he could have lunch/dinner with each group to get to know the students. My D enjoyed the course so much she said had she taken it freshman year she would have considered being a engineering student</p>

58

<p>Marite</p>

<p>Justice - yep, that was the other one I referred. :)</p>

<p>"As I said, there are good and bad points about having TFs. My S1 at a LAC was shut out of classes that had caps of 30. That happened in his senior year and it was no fun (it had also happened before, but senior year was crucial). He was also in some classes that cried out for discussion but were too large for it. The prof tried; it did not work out."</p>

<p>I was never shut out of a class at Dartmouth, nor did I have a class where size hampered necessary discussion.</p>

<p>"Profs are in class 6-8 hours a week; but for every one of these lectures, they spend 20 hours preparing. So, yes, a prof can suck it up and grade 105 exams on his own--and my friend has done so. I have not asked him about the type of questions he has asked on his exams or the amount of comments he was able to make on each and every exam."</p>

<p>Dartmouth used to have the entire course schedule, assignments, lecture topics and exams posted for every course before the start of the term to help in course shopping. It is unlikely any professor I had spent 20 hours preparing any one of his lectures, especially if he/she had taught the course before. Then there were the many cases where the professor had written the text book for the class. :)</p>

59

<p>and yet, Blossom, my son has had TAs in both the English and Literary Arts departments of Brown who handled the entire course, without any professor --just that TA. When did you graduate from Brown?</p>

60

<p>I have never heard of classes at any Ivy taught by only a TA...not saying it doesn't happen, but at Brown? Well, live and learn, so to speak. I have always thought the issue of "class size" a bit of a red herring. As many on this thread have recounted, there are reasons why some classes are so large--the professors are that good. If it were only for economies of scale, that would be a negative, but in my experience not so. Coupled with good break outs and smaller sessions in same subject area, confluence of large lectures and seminar type experience has a lot of merit. It is the one area of USNWR evaluations I would jettison.</p>