<p>I know Cornell is best for engineering (of the Ivies), but I'm looking at Princeton. I know that the Ivies aren't known for their engineering, so I was just wondering what the benefits would be of going to Princeton versus say Penn State, which is similarly ranked for engineering. What about things like job opportunities after college etc, and is it worth going into debt for Princeton (not a lot of debt, but some) when the U.S. News says that for engineering, it's not much better than Penn State (which for me is free because I'm in-state with a staff discount and a big scholarship). Any thoughts?</p>
<p>Benefits of Princeton vs PSU
- Princeton is much better recruited for Wall Street type jobs.
- Princeton has a tighter alumni network after graduation
- Princeton has better name for career switches
- Princeton is better for getting into top graduate programs.
- Princeton has a much better undergradate program</p>
<p>Benefits of PSU over Princeton
- Cost of attending</p>
<p>I don't think Princeton will be of any benefit over PSU for getting into engineering graduate programs, maybe other graduate programs.</p>
<p>Honestly, I cannot imagine passing up PSU for free! To me this is a no-brainer.</p>
<p>The real benefit of Princeton vis-a-vis Penn State is, what if you decide you don't want to be an engineer? The fact is, most students who enter engineering programs will not complete it. Many of them find out that they'd rather major in something else, either because they find something else more interesting, or they find that engineering is just too hard. And even of those who do complete their engineering degrees, many of them (especially from a super-selective school like Princeton) decide that they don't actually want to work as engineers, instead often times preferring to work as bankers or management consultants. </p>
<p>"Of those who enter engineering school, fewer than 40 percent complete the degree programs"</p>
<p>DEFINITELY PSU-schreyers. Not everyone wants to be a banker or management consultant.And not everyone has what it takes. So if he decides he doesn't want to be an engineer, he isn't necessarily going to go the ibanking/consulting route.Consequently, he wouldn't necessarily regret not going to the ivy.And like you said, thats the only real 'benefit' of choosing princeton over PSU.</p>
<p>Please dont waste your money for NOTHING.</p>
<p>That's not the only real benefit. Far from it, in fact. It is just the biggest one in my eyes.</p>
<p>The other major real benefit of Princeton over Penn State is that Princeton is a far 'safer' school to go to academically, in the sense that practically nobody ever actually flunks out of Princeton. You have to remember that just because you go to college doesn't mean that you're going to graduate. A lot of students don't make it to graduation. However, given Princeton's grading philosophy, generally, the only people who don't graduate from Princeton are those people who don't want to graduate. As long as you do the work, you're going to get a degree. It may not be easy to get top grades at Princeton, but as long as you put in some bare modicum of effort, you're going to pass your classes. You might pass with only straight C's, but you're still going to pass. On the other hand, Penn State (along with most other public schools) will absolutely not hesitate for a moment to flunk you out. Flunking out is basically an academic 'death sentence' because not only does your matriculated school not want you around, but no other decent school wants you either because no decent school wants to accept a transfer student who flunked out of his previous college. </p>
<p>Don't think it can happen to you? I know a guy who chose Berkeley over Stanford for money reasons (he was a California state resident), and then proceeded to flunk right out of Berkeley. If he had gone to Stanford, he probably would have graduated, because Stanford practically never flunks anybody out. He might not have gotten top grades at Stanford, but at least he would have graduated. Now, as a Berkeley expellee, he's completely screwed. In retrospect, I think it's quite clear that he would have been far far better off going into debt to get a Stanford degree than to have tried to save money by going to Berkeley, only to flunk out.</p>
<p>sakky, did your Berkeley friend actually work when he got there or did the workload just wear him down?</p>
<p>But what are the chances of this kid flunking out?i mean seriously- if he's willing to at least put in SOME effort he would do just fine.Seems like a bright kid.</p>
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sakky, did your Berkeley friend actually work when he got there or did the workload just wear him down?
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<p>Wasn't working at all. He had a full ride through the Chancellor's Scholarship to Berkeley (which is why he chose Berkeley). Hence, he had everything paid for. He then promptly flunked out. </p>
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But what are the chances of this kid flunking out?i mean seriously- if he's willing to at least put in SOME effort he would do just fine.Seems like a bright kid.
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<p>It's not really a question of work ethic. It's really a question of personal maturity. He now freely admits that he simply wasn't mature when he was 17 years old. He just wasn't ready to handle living life away from his parents.</p>
<p>And the sad fact is, this happens to a lot of students. Let's face it. A lot of incoming freshmen have adjustment problems. For many of them, this is their first real extended time living away from family. Many students get very homesick. Many experience psychological problems. Some experience romance problems - i.e. they might meet their first true boyfriend/girlfriend while in college, and then suffer through relationship problems. </p>
<p>That actually happened to the guy I am referring to. He met his first girlfriend while in college. And then she cheated on him. That screwed him up psychologically for a long time. Combine that with his immaturity, and his academic work went right down the toilet.</p>
<p>But Berkeley didn't care about any of that. You're having maturity problems? You're having relationship problems? You're having psychological issues? Too bad. That's your problem. We don't care. If you don't get a certain score on these exams, you're expelled. And that's exactly what happened to him. He didn't get those scores, so he's out. Lots of public schools have this sort of viciously cold attitude towards their students. </p>
<p>The top private schools are far more compassionate and accommodating to those students who are having problems. They have generous leaves-of-absence policies. They don't go around trying to tag students with problems with lots of bad grades in an effort to expel them. </p>
<p>The saddest part of this whole story is that Berkeley refuses to give him a second chance. He freely admits that when he was younger, he was immature. Fine. But what is he supposed to do about that now? He can't go back in time and change what happened. It's many years later, so why not let the guy come back into Berkeley with a clean slate? Those problems that he had were many years ago, who cares about them now? He's a different man now. But, nope, Berkeley refuses to let him back in. Not only that, but he can't transfer to any other decent school because no decent school wants to allow in a student who flunked out of his previous school. </p>
<p>This is wrong. Even bankruptcies are, by Federal law, wiped out from your credit report after 10 years. But the records that he flunked out of Berkeley will follow him for the rest of his life, hence hindering from getting an education at any other decent school. </p>
<p>Personally, I think what Berkeley should have done is provide him with the psychological counseling that he needed. If not that, then Berkeley should have at least given him another chance, several years later, to restart at Berkeley with a clean slate. Or at the very least, I think Berkeley should now seal his academic records so that he can get fresh start at some other school. Berkeley refuses to do ANY of these things.</p>
<p>So my point is, I strongly suspect that Penn State would have the same attitude. If you come in and have problems, too bad, you're expelled. This is why I consider the top private schools like Princeton to be safe choices. They are going to be far more accommodating if you come in and have problems. In short, these sorts of private schools will do everything in their power to help you to graduate, whereas many of the public schools will not. </p>
<p>In short, I would say that this guy is actually WORSE off by going to Berkeley. This should not be. He should not be made worse off. For example, he would have been better off just going to the workforce right after high school rather than gone to Berkeley. Why? Because if he had just gone to work, then right now, he would be able to apply to colleges with a clean slate, and his strong high school performance would have gotten him into some very good colleges. But now, because he went to Berkeley, had problems, and flunked out, his bad Berkeley record will follow him around forever, hindering him from getting admission to other schools. In other words, he is actually WORSE off by choosing Berkeley than if he had never gone to college at all. That's both sad and wrong.</p>
<p>That's such a sad story . . . I agree, it is wrong.</p>
<p>However, I don't think I would have a problem with flunking out. Worst-case scenario, I wouldn't be able to keep the GPA necessary to stay in Schreyer. But here's another thing: I'm not quite sure that I will remain in engineering. If I switch to something in the liberal arts, Princeton is obviously the better school. And here's the kicker: my scholarship at Penn State is contingent on remaining in the school of Engineering. It would still be cheaper even without the scholarship, but since Princeton doesn't take transfer students. I don't think I would ever be able to forgive myself if I turned down Princeton because of its cost and the seemingly equal engineering program at PSU--and ended up switching out of engineering anyway. I may also go to grad school, or even law or med school.</p>
<p>So I guess it's a gamble: Go to Penn State and hope I love engineering, or go to Princeton. there are advantages both ways, but I'm really feeling uneasy about making such a huge choice.</p>
<p>P.S. I also have a full ride to the University of Delaware that doesn't depend on staying in the school of engineering, if that helps. Any input would be very much appreciated!</p>
<p>If you really have your heart set on engineering, I'd go the cost route. If you think "oh, it's interesting..." I'd go the Pton route.</p>
<p>Wow. If you can go to Princeton without a lot of debt, do it (as long as you consider it to be a good fit). Once in a lifetime chance. PSU Schreyer is an excellent program but I don't think it compares to Princeton - and sounds like Princeton gives you a lot more flexibility.</p>
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and is it worth going into debt for Princeton (not a lot of debt, but some)
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<p>Oh..I think i missed that part.I was thinking you had no scholarships,no grants(from princeton). But if the amount of debt you incur as a result of going to princeton is reasonable, you should definitely go there.I just hope changing majors wouldn't mean transferring out of princeton. PSU offers every major you can think of.</p>
<p>So what do people do if they flunk out of college. Can they ever get back into academia and get a degree.</p>
<p>It's a hard road. Basically, they have to go to a no-name college (i.e. a community college) and rebuild their academic record. It's really quite unfortunate, because flunking out of college basically invalidates your high school record (because nobody cares if you did really well in high school if you flunk out of college). The upshot is that it's better to not go to a college at all than to go to college and flunk out. Hence, going to college can actually HURT you.</p>
<p>I am in a similar situation. I got into PSU-schreyers as well as Delaware (with lots of money), Cornell and Michigan. The best engineering wise would be Michigan, but as a PA resident PSU is way way cheaper. I thought of it this way: who in the country has not heard of Penn State? very few I would guess. Then I thought about the Alumni connections and Penn State has the largest Alumni network of any school. Additionaly I know many people that love Penn State so much (I think they must brain wash people there) that they would bend over backwards the help someone. I then thought about the education factor. Penn State isn't the number 1 school in the country but it is still highly ranked. Is there really that much difference in terms of being admited to Grad school from a school that is ranked in the top 10 or a school that is in the top 50? I really dont think so. Also Schreyer's has increadible grad school placement equal to that of the Ivys. And if you go there you will be like a big fish in a small pond as opposed to a small fish in an ocean of similar fish. Finally I looked at social life. This became the deciding factor. There is really nothing better than a football game. As I am sure you know since your parents are faculty, Beaver Stadium is quite an incredible place. I can attest, from attending the OSU game this year with a friend, that the student section is awesome. Additionaly I am enrolled in a class at Lafayette College and my professor happens to be an exchange proff from Princeton. He was talking today about how intellectual and kind of boring the social scene is there. For instance MTVU was haveing a concert at Lafayette this evening and he was like that would never happen where I am from. He said they would be more likely to have a poetry reading.</p>
<p>So that being said... I hope to see you next year standing amid a sea of white cheering the team towards a victory over Michigan. WE ARE .... PENN STATE!!!!!</p>
<p>Thanks to everyone for your advice and encouragement! I'm pretty sure I'm going to go to Princeton, due to a variety of factors. I'm okay with a slightly dull social scene--I don't drink, and I actually quite like poetry. Hopefully flunking out won't become an issue!!! thanks once again!</p>
<p>p.s. I think it's interesting that you all think I'm a guy . . .</p>
<p>What do you guys think about Columbia's Fu Engineering School?</p>