Ivy League Bound?

Applying to College
101

<p>Momofwildchild - That is really disappointing to hear. It sounds like your son is exactly the type of student who truly belongs at an Ivy! If so many are saying the types of things that you and Sakky are posting, then there has to be some validity to it. I hope that colleges read these threads carefully, because there is gold in here for their improvement.</p>

<p>I still have to admit that if I were trying to get my piece of the American dream, if I was a new immigrant or if my family had not yet "made it", I would certainly jump at the chance to attend an Ivy (despite their shortcomings). Actually, even if my family had come over on the Mayflower or if my Dad was The Donald, my decision would be the same. I guess the history, the buildings, the accomplished professors (even though many might be lousy teachers), and most importantly the brilliant peer group would be irrestistable to me.</p>

102

<p>
[quote]
But you just cannot say that the diploma will help you make more money. If graduates of HYPS who became fabulously wealthy were to have gone to an average university, the outcome would have been the same.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If only that were true. Take Steve Ballmer for example. There are probably a lot of people just as qualified to take on the position of Microsoft CEO. But do you think Ballmer being Gates' poker buddy at Harvard had nothing to do with this? Do you really think Ballmer would've been just as successful had he gone to a State University?</p>

<p>Or take the founders of Google. Most of the start-up workers were associated with Brin and Page at Stanford. Those initial people are probably all extremely wealthy now.</p>

<p>Getting that kind of success depends a lot on who you know, and what connections you can make. A lot of successful people tend to cluster at the top schools.</p>

103

<p>
[quote]
There is ample material available online and in the library to research almost any topic. A university student who relies solely upon a one hour classroom lecture is doing far from the minimum amount of adequate preparation.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, but the same is true of any subject. The fact is, a good physics or math textbook is often times a better 'teacher' than many of the physics or math professors at even the top schools. Granted, there are also plenty of terrible textbooks out there, such that one of the key strategies involved in really learning any technical subject is finding a particular textbook that works well for you. But once you find it, you're golden. In fact, often times, students at the top technical schools will choose not to go to lecture at all, but will instead just stay in their rooms and read the book, as they find they learn more that way.</p>

<p>But that's all beside the point. The point is that I think we have now clearly established that whatever are the advantages that the Ivies offer, consistently strong teaching isn't one of them. To be sure, some of the Ivy profs are indeed very good teachers. But others, not so much. I have encountered a good number of rather middling Ivy teachers in my time. Great researchers to be sure, but only middling teachers. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, just because a professor is egotistical and reluctant doesn't make him entirely useless. Certainly he is making some progress when he is up in front of a classroom. Most importantly, as a mentor and for inspiration, an accomplished professor has much to offer to the best and the brightest. Being exposed to such a person is in itself a powerful opportunity for instruction

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Mentoring and inspiration? I don't know about that - if the guy doesn't want to do it, he's not going to do it. As a case in point, how inspiring is it to have a prof who insults you personally and tells you that you should leave the major? I've seen that happen.</p>

104

<p>
[quote]
If only that were true. Take Steve Ballmer for example. There are probably a lot of people just as qualified to take on the position of Microsoft CEO. But do you think Ballmer being Gates' poker buddy at Harvard had nothing to do with this? Do you really think Ballmer would've been just as successful had he gone to a State University?</p>

<p>Or take the founders of Google. Most of the start-up workers were associated with Brin and Page at Stanford. Those initial people are probably all extremely wealthy now.</p>

<p>Getting that kind of success depends a lot on who you know, and what connections you can make. A lot of successful people tend to cluster at the top schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How do you explain J Allard then? (A BU graduate nonetheless! =) ). I doubt J was chillin with WH Gates and Ballmer at H. How did he become the VP of MS and the 'president of Xbox'?</p>

<p>Pretty much reiterating what I've said before--The Ivies arent the ONLY schools where you can encounter connections. Certainly they are prevalent, but by not going to an Ivy, you arent jeopardizing your opportunities to gain connections.</p>

105

<p>
[quote]
I think you should change your mind set of "can I get into the Ivy League?" Not because you're not capable, but because it's just a bad attitude. You need to do some research into what schools you would be happy at. There are plenty of institutions that will give you the same caliber of education without the "Ivy League" moniker that are worthy of your research. Think about what you want from a school and then go visit or (if that's not possible) read everything you can about the institution. The Ivy League schools are all very different and are looking for applicants who are serious about attending their school and not just those who send the same app to all 8.

[/quote]

I believe this original response of mine was the one that got this whole argument started. I posted this because I know many people who apply to the Ivy League schools "just cuz" or "to see which one accepts me." However, in my experience (I visited all but Cornell, Harvard and Dartmouth) all are very different schools. I wasn't trying to steer the OP from applying to the Ivies. I merely suggested broadening her search to include some other top universities/LACs. One cannot only apply to the Ivies and nowhere else. Therefore, I was giving the OP some suggestions on how to lengthen her list since no one should plan on applying only to Harvard or Yale. *No one<a href="not%20even%20someone%20with%20a%202400SAT/4.0GPA">/i</a> is guarenteed a spot there any more.
I stand by my original advice. Maria, think about what you like about Harvard and Yale other than prestige. Is there a specific program you like that another school might have as well? Is the location ideal? Etc. Once you come up with factors other than "it can get me into a good grad school" or "it will help me out later in life" or "it stresses leadership and academics" (all of which are true - I'm not denying that) then we can help you expand your list.</p>

106

<p>good shape</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=361574%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=361574&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

107

<p>Big Brother Quote:
"Take Steve Ballmer for example. There are probably a lot of people just as qualified to take on the position of Microsoft CEO. But do you think Ballmer being Gates' poker buddy at Harvard had nothing to do with this? Do you really think Ballmer would've been just as successful had he gone to a State University? Or take the founders of Google. Most of the start-up workers were associated with Brin and Page at Stanford. Those initial people are probably all extremely wealthy now. Getting that kind of success depends a lot on who you know, and what connections you can make. A lot of successful people tend to cluster at the top schools."</p>

<p>Big Brother, there are even more examples of fabulously successful business people who did not meet up with their valuable contacts while at HYPS. Just ask Microsoft Co-Founder Paul Allen (who somehow seemed to do OK financially, despite slumming it at Washington State).</p>

108

<p>ok so here is why I asked about Ivy League bound:</p>

<p>Since I was in Guatemala, going to an Ivy was a big thing. My mom taught at the American School there, she taught the honors class, and she had many students that attended them. So since I was little I've been hearing about these schools. Until I got here, I wasnt really expecting to get the opportunity to apply to any of them, but then I started working really hard and began my goal to go to an Ivy. Yes, they have setbacks and problems and definetely room to improve, just like any institution. I know that leadership and academics may seem like not enough reasons to go to an Ivy, but there are so many more factors about why I want to go to certain ones not all of them. I asked Ivy league bound bacause I wanted to know how I'm doing so far and what can I do to improve, or get involved in and I've gotten amazing responses. Here are some of the things I have taken into consideration for the schools that I would like to apply:</p>

<p>East Coast locations. I love the East Coast, in fact I want to move to NYC after college, and going east would make that move not as drastic.
I love UPenn's undergrad business program particularly their International Studies and Business program at Wharton.
I like Harvard because of their Economics program and their proximity to a big city without being in it.
Yale is pretty good also, even if I'm not too sure about New Haven.
Princeton is a great school but I dont like the grading system so I wouldnt want to go there. I think if an entire class has worked hard to get an A they should get what they deserve.
Cornell is way too in the middle of nowhere for me
Dartmouth has never gotten my attention for some reason, I just dont feel like I would fit there.
Columbia, it's in NYC so I've definetely considered it but being in my favorite city in the world right away may be too much of a distraction.
Brown, it's a great school also but since we've talked about fit a lot, I dont see myself there.<br>
I like Stanford also, and its a lot closer to home and its near San Francisco.
The State School in Nevada arent very good so I dont plan on apply here. So there may be some that I would like, the problem with state schools though would be the $. Since I'm out of state, tuition is pretty high and their financial aid isnt as big as the private ones, specially the ones for Harvard, Yale and UPenn, which offer amazing financial aid packages that I would definetely qualify for, so good school and more $= very appealing! </p>

<p>Also, maybe I'm wrong about expecting better teaching, but where I'm at, I've probably have self taught 95% of the time, text books pretty much becoming my bff's :) </p>

<p>Prestige isnt everything, but it is a sort of incentive since they are such hard schools to get into, that not many people can say they got accepted so you must have done something right to go there (even if sometimes is just pure luck). Connections can be established anywhere specially if you are a people person and get along with those around you (something I'm proud to say I have being in leadership activities and such) but being surrounded by very well connected people gives you a higher chance. </p>

<p>I have not yet visited school so my idea of "fit" may change and I may discover that I dont want to go to some of my top picks! Who knows! </p>

<p>So, now that I've stated some of my resons, how do you see my chances of acceptance? </p>

<p>ps. My SAT scores will go up, I promise, I just bought a bunch of prep books that I will study like crazy.</p>

109

<p>U of C Economics is better! [hehe] Your acadmic record is great, SAT scores low, but studying will help, you have a hook (URM-age), you seem to be set. Again, you can't expect or trust for that matter anyone on this site who says you have a 60 percent chance of being admitted... because they, nor I have any idea. Bottom line: you fit the profile of a student that highly competitive schools embrace.</p>

110

<p>
[quote]
East Coast locations. I love the East Coast, in fact I want to move to NYC after college, and going east would make that move not as drastic.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh COME ON. EVERYONE wants to live in the Big Apple. What is up with that?</p>

111

<p>
[quote]
Big Brother, there are even more examples of fabulously successful business people who did not meet up with their valuable contacts while at HYPS. Just ask Microsoft Co-Founder Paul Allen (who somehow seemed to do OK financially, despite slumming it at Washington State).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, I think Allen is actually a terrible example. Allen met Bill Gates at Lakeside School, an elite private prep school in Seattle. Hence, what Allen's example proves is that if you already have the contacts, sure, you don't have to build them by going to a top college. But what if you don't already have them?</p>

112

<p>
[quote]
How do you explain J Allard then? (A BU graduate nonetheless! =) ). I doubt J was chillin with WH Gates and Ballmer at H. How did he become the VP of MS and the 'president of Xbox'?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Another bad example. Allard didn't join Microsoft until the 90's (after all, he was only born in 1969), and by that time Microsoft was already a tremendously successful company. That's not the way to get filthy rich.</p>

<p>What you * really * want to have done is join the company * before * it become fabulously successful, and preferably, before the IPO. Microsoft was founded in 1975 and IPO'd in 1985. That period was clearly the best time to have joined the company. That was when the opportunity existed to make truly gargantuan amounts of money.</p>

113

<p>I think you should just go through economics school first then move3 onto business. NOt trying 2 change your frame of mind but I think econ is da start and foundation that will lead you onto business.....</p>

114

<p>Hi everyone =D. I'm a New Zealand Mountain Parrot.</p>

<p>Anyhow I won't make a detailed response since I would be merely copying the same words expressed over and over again by numerous posters before me (sakky, molliebatmit, simfish, pebbles)</p>

<p>
[quote]
In fact, often times, students at the top technical schools will choose not to go to lecture at all, but will instead just stay in their rooms and read the book, as they find they learn more that way.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree with this sentiment. It's expressed here:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=92631%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=92631&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>


</p>

<p>and here...
<a href="http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/life/workplay_balance_at_mit/advice_youve_heard_before_and.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/life/workplay_balance_at_mit/advice_youve_heard_before_and.shtml&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=3964877&postcount=185%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=3964877&postcount=185&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=3962924&postcount=167%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=3962924&postcount=167&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=3963846&postcount=180%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=3963846&postcount=180&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=4021181&highlight=ohio+state#post4021181%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=4021181&highlight=ohio+state#post4021181&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

115

<p>Sakky - Paul Allen is not a bad example. Lots of other people went to Lakeside and didn't start Microsoft with Bill. Allen has done a lot of other successful things as well beyond Microsoft which supports my thesis: You can't keep a good man down. :-) And that will let me segway into answering Maria's last question, which is about her chances with the additional information she provided.</p>

<p>Maria will get into into an Ivy League school. Her enthusiasm and personality come through even on CC. Her recs will be amazing. Of course, she will be successful either way. She's smart and has a likeable, eager personality. You just end up rooting for her even if you don't know her. Her success will be all about Maria, not about Penn. But Penn will be thrilled to have her.</p>

116

<p>
[quote]
Sakky - Paul Allen is not a bad example. Lots of other people went to Lakeside and didn't start Microsoft with Bill.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't see what your point is. sakky was just basically saying that Allen being at Lakeside was KEY. Had he been at another school, it could've very well been different for Allen.</p>

<p>But I don't see why everyone is so obsessed with billionaires and highly successful company heads. The VAST majority of us will never be as successful as these people are. So when it comes to odds like that, we have to redefine our definition of success. It's extremely presumptuous to make examples of various successful men and then base arguments around them.</p>

117

<p>
[quote]
Another bad example. Allard didn't join Microsoft until the 90's (after all, he was only born in 1969), and by that time Microsoft was already a tremendously successful company. That's not the way to get filthy rich.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I fail to see how this is a bad example--Allard had no connection to M$ (that I know of...). He got a job at an already successful company without super connections and without being from a top-top school.</p>

118

<p>
[quote]
Sakky - Paul Allen is not a bad example. Lots of other people went to Lakeside and didn't start Microsoft with Bill.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And similarly lots of people went to Harvard and didn't start Microsoft with Bill. But so what? At least by knowing Bill, you had the chance of starting Microsoft with him. If you didn't even know Bill, you would have NO CHANCE to have started the company with Bill. After all, Bill didn't just randomly pick some dude out of a hat to be his partner. He picked his old friend. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Allen has done a lot of other successful things as well beyond Microsoft which supports my thesis: You can't keep a good man down. :-)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, really? Like what exactly? His post-Microsoft business success has been rather middling. Charter Communications has been an absolute disaster of a firm ever since he bought a controlling interest in it in 1998. Nor can you blame Charter's woes on the tech crash - as the NASDAQ has actually significantly outperformed Charter. </p>

<p><a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=my&s=CHTR&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=&c=%5EIXIC%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=my&s=CHTR&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=&c=%5EIXIC&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Paul Allen has been so conspicuously unsuccessful post-Microsoft that entire books and news articles have been written about it. Here's one snippet. </p>

<p>*Allen, who made billions from his Microsoft stock options making him the fourth richest man on the planet, has gone on to a series of unsuccessful endeavors in both technology and sports</p>

<p>Why do you think most of Allen's post-Microsoft ventures have been unsuccessful?
He has good ideas but he lacks the follow-through. And he doesn't hire well. He doesn't really hire people who can execute his ideas very well. He's kind of a micromanager, but he vacillates between being a micromanager and being really hands-off. *</p>

<p><a href="http://www.mediabistro.com/content/archives/03/01/21a/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mediabistro.com/content/archives/03/01/21a/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Look, the truth is simple. If Paul Allen had never met Bill Gates, he would have never become a multi-billionaire. Hey, don't get me wrong, I wish I was as lucky as he was. But the point is, he isn't really a "good man", so much as he was a "lucky man". I would agree that you can't keep a lucky man down. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I fail to see how this is a bad example--Allard had no connection to M$ (that I know of...). He got a job at an already successful company without super connections and without being from a top-top school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's a terrible example because you don't really need to have strong connections to get into Microsoft * right now <a href="or%20back%20in%20the%2090's%20when%20Allard%20got%20in">/i</a>. Similarly, you don't really need strong connections to get a job at ExxonMobil or Citigroup or IBM. When companies become large and successful, they enact formal hiring procedures which reduces the need for connections. They help, but you don't need them.</p>

<p>But you DO need them when the company is just starting out. That's because, like I said, startups don't have formal hiring and recruiting processes. They can't. They don't have the infrastructure to do it. When you're just 2 guys in a garage, you don't have the time or the money to vet thousands of candidates in a nationwide search. You just end up hiring whoever you know is available, which inevitably means hiring through your network. </p>

<p>But it is precisely when the company is still a startup that the opportunity to get truly rich (i.e. in the billionaire range) exists. After the company is already large and successful, there really isn't that much room left to grow. The law of large numbers takes over. </p>

<p>Hence, Allard is a bad example. Clearly you don't need connections to get into Microsoft *now<a href="or%20back%20in%20the%2090's">/i</a>. But you did when Microsoft was still a startup.</p>

119

<p>Sakky Quote: And similarly lots of people went to Harvard and didn't start Microsoft with Bill. But so what? At least by knowing Bill, you had the chance of starting Microsoft with him. If you didn't even know Bill, you would have NO CHANCE to have started the company with Bill. </p>

<p>I think if you go to Harvard to meet a guy like Bill, you run a big chance of losing a lot of money for nothing. It is sort of like running around a golf course with a hot dog at the end of a stick, hoping to get struck by lightening. Sure, it can happen. It just isn't a way to guarantee yourself a cooked hot dog (and it probably won't be worth the trouble).</p>

<p>I do love the idea of people writing about what a failure Paul Allen is as a businessman. That is very amusing.</p>

120

<p>
[quote]
I think if you go to Harvard to meet a guy like Bill, you run a big chance of losing a lot of money for nothing.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's not the point though. I would think sakky knows taking risks very well. I believe he worked in a startup a couple of years ago.</p>

<p>Even if Allen and Bill did fail, at least they tried. That's certainly far better than the guy who didn't try, and was never going to get rich anyways. But that's how a lot of businesses start up - you have to take risks. You yourself brought up an example of a highly successful person, so I don't really see what you're trying to say.</p>

<p>The point was though, Allen got rich, and that's because he made that connection with Bill.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I do love the idea of people writing about what a failure Paul Allen is as a businessman. That is very amusing.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How is that supposed to be amusing? If anything, that just strengthens the idea that you don't need to be "good" to get rich.</p>