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</p>
<p>SIZE matters. If you are the recruiter/manager, are you going to waste time to recruit on campus if there are less than 5 students with the major you specificly look for?</p>
<p>“The engineering students at these schools are very talented…”</p>
<p>Largely agree, though at the bank we had one bonehead from Harvard, I don’t think the greatest minds at that school necessarily gravitate to their engineering program.</p>
<p>“…and no doubt they get a very strong foundational undergraduate education,”
In engineering- I have doubt, in some cases, regarding the more applied aspects. I think many are not doing an ABET program.</p>
<p>“…and many go on to successful engineering careers.”
Define many. I certainly don’t know any, except from Cornell. I read on CC that something like 1/3 from Columbia Fu go on to engineering, I bet it’s less at the others besides Cornell. I have dealt in the workplace with engineering grads of Harvard and Dartmouth, none [of these few] ever worked as engineers. And one Penn grad who had been an engineer,for a while, FWIW.</p>
<p>So my kid should go to the local Carnegie Mellon info session instead of the Dartmouth session at the same time?</p>
<p>^ If your kid wants to study engineering Carnegie Mellon is a much better bet than Dartmouth. In engineering it’s as good as Cornell or Princeton and better than any of the other Ivies.</p>
<p>It depends on one’s ultimate goals. If your goal is to do an ABET program and then seek engineering employment, you might as well attend a school that has a large breadth and depth of courses in the various engineering sub-fields, maybe a coop program, all to help inform one’s choice of path within the profession, and good on-campus recruiting.</p>
<p>If you have no intention of becoming a practicing engineer, are thinking about maybe becoming an applied science research scientist, and are keen on one of the particular sub-areas that one of these other schools actually has a decent research group in, maybe that opens up some other schools. Some evidently have big budgets (per capita) for undergraduate research, for those who care. (Few courses, perhaps, but that’s another story).</p>
<p>If you have no intention of being an engineer, want to go into business but heard that some of such employers like to hire engineers, then some other programs might be called for, that are maybe lighter on engineering but heavier on recruiting in these non-engineering areas. I think in that case you are largely squandering an education studying something you’ve no interest in, but that’s your call. In that case, if you decide you really like engineering after all, if need be you can go for a Master’s at a “good” engineering program afterwards, I guess might be the thought process.</p>
<p>Etc.</p>
<p>^and which “good” engineering schools have coop programs and good recruiting? I’m aware of RIT. Any others?</p>
<p>As for the last paragraph, what if you just don’t know? What if you think you want to be an engineer, but want to have other options?</p>
<p>It’s funny that some of the Ivy League schools get criticized for having “weak” engineering departments, when they have about the same faculty members in the NAE as some schools with “stronger” engineering programs…</p>
<p>NAE Members, School
112, MIT
91, Stanford
76, Berkeley
48, Texas
31, Caltech
29, Illinois
26, Georgia Tech
25, CMU
25, Cornell
25, Princeton
23, USC
21, Michigan
21, UCSB
20, UCSD
19, Harvard
19, Northwestern
19, Purdue
19, Wisconsin
19, UCLA
16, Columbia
16, Minnesota
16, Washington
14, Maryland
13, Texas A&M
12, Rice
10, Penn
11, Ohio State
11, Colorado
11, Virginia
10, Lehigh
9, Penn State
9, UC Davis
8, NC State
8, UC Irvine
7, Delaware
6, Yale
6, Florida
5, Virginia Tech
4, Brown
3, Dartmouth
3, Duke
3, Notre Dame
3, Colorado School of Mines
3, Oklahoma State
1, Michigan State
1, Texas Tech</p>
<p>^is this a relevant barometer of the quality of engineering education at these schools?</p>
<p>^ Compare that list to the actual engineering rankings…what do you think?</p>
<p>“^and which “good” engineering schools have coop programs and good recruiting?”
I don’t know, none of my kids were looking. Cornell does, and I think MIT does too.</p>
<p>“What if you think you want to be an engineer, but want to have other options?”
You have to decide from the available choices. You can choose optimal for path #1, but maybe less optimal for fall backs, maybe switch if it doesn’t work out. Vs. optimal for fallbacks, but less optimal for path #1. Or other points on the continuum. There is no perfect answer, for everyone. Stanford seems pretty perfect though, just go there. If you can…</p>
<p>“^is this a relevant barometer of the quality of engineering education at these schools”</p>
<p>Some of the smaller programs cope by establishing some high-quality research groups, in a few non-comprehensive sub-areas of the profession. They may have strong research groups in these sub-areas, yet not have comprehensive coverage of the range of breath and depth of the profession overall, and have few students who plan to practice engineering. Such places can be good choices for a budding applied scientist who is willing to live with the program’s limitations, as I suggested previously.
Amazingly, places like US News give credit for the good research groups, but do not deduct for the sub-areas where research, and courses, are lacking altogether. This is how these niche programs are able to get decent rankings,despite having major gaps in their coverage of the profession. IMO.</p>
<p>So where are Hopkins, RPI, RIT, etc.? Supposedly excellent engineering schools. No NAE members? What would that indicate?</p>
<p>I forgot to include them on the list:</p>
<p>7, JHU
6, RPI</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nae.edu/nae/naepub.nsf/Members+By+Parent+InstitutionA?openview[/url]”>http://www.nae.edu/nae/naepub.nsf/Members+By+Parent+InstitutionA?openview</a></p>
<p>
</p>
<p>NAE membership is one measure of faculty strength, but not the only one. There are many excellent faculty who are not NAE members, and a school could have a large number of NAE members but still a lot of gaps in its curricular offerings in the engineering disciplines. These sorts of faculty honors also tend to skew towards more senior people in a field; a school could have a lot of bright up-and-coming stars who are not yet NAE members, and not look quite as strong on this list. So I wouldn’t place too much weight on NAE membership, though it is one yardstick to consider.</p>
<p>Even by this measure, I’d say Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth don’t look particularly strong in engineering; Cornell and Princeton very strong; and Columbia and Penn moderately strong, roughly right around their US News rankings. </p>
<p>The one showing somewhat surprising engineering faculty strength (or peak-level faculty prestige, which is not quite the same thing) is Harvard. Well, then again, maybe that shouldn’t be too surprising because Harvard has the money and the prestige to buy the faculty they want. I assume they don’t get ranked higher in engineering because of their limited curricular offerings across the range of engineering specialties. So despite the faculty prestige, I’m still not convinced Harvard is a great place to study engineering if you want to be an engineer.</p>
<p>“^and which “good” engineering schools have coop programs and good recruiting?”
Northwestern has a well-established co-op program. About 30% of the students participate in it. Typical schedule looks like this:</p>
<p>Freshman Year
Fall School
Winter School
Spring School
Summer Internship? </p>
<p>Sophomore Year<br>
Fall School
Winter School
Spring School
Summer Co-op </p>
<p>Junior Year<br>
Fall School
Winter School
Spring Co-op
Summer Co-op </p>
<p>Pre-Senior Year
Fall School
Winter Co-op
Spring School
Summer Co-op </p>
<p>Senior Year<br>
Fall Co-op
Winte School
Spring School/Graduation
</p></li>
</ol>
<p>“I assume they don’t get ranked higher in engineering because of their limited curricular offerings across the range of engineering specialties.”
I don’t think this is even considered, though obviously it should be.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Good question. Most kids change majors at least once, and more transfer out of engineering than transfer into it, in part because it’s hard enough to complete the engineering degree requirements (which are often sequenced courses) in four years, much less compress them into two. A sensible approach, then, is to look for schools that are strong in engineering but also strong across the board in other disciplines. I’d say Stanford, UC Berkeley, Cornell, Princeton, Michigan, Northwestern, and Wisconsin fit that description.</p>
<p>
My point was they have the same level of faculty achievement as a NC State, Virginia Tech and Delaware…schools known for their engineering programs.</p>
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</p>
<p>I think it does get considered by the university presidents and provosts who fill out the PA survey which makes up a substantial part of the US News rankings for engineering programs.</p>
<p>
Ummm, it is the only part of the engineering rankings. Ask academics to rank engineering programs and they’ll look at their peers academic achievements and rank off of that because those factors are most visible and important to them.</p>
<p>The most important thing is whether curricular offerings across the range of engineering specialties matters to you, not whether rankings take that into consideration. </p>
<p>You really don’t have to throw yourself into such dilemma; if you pick Princeton/Cornell/MIT/Stanford, you probably have enough reach schools on your list anyway. Go ahead if you must apply to Harvard. After that though, your next task should be finding the match schools and they won’t be Ivies anyway.</p>