<p>I think the issue Jamimom, is that when looked at over time, many of the well educated and well connected simply don't have the hunger to rise to the top. Pwehaps they just plain don't have the need. When I look at a large law firm filled with top school grads, those that have risen to the very top ranks are those who had the desire to, worked harder than anyone without the "need" (be that what it may) and were far more likely not to have been born wealthy or connected. But ivy leaguers all.</p>
<p>When I read this thread, the first thing I wondered was how the graduates of prestigious LACs fare in the business world. It always seems to be the stereotype that graduates go on to pursue higher education and then become professors (obviously putting the graduates into quite a stereotypical nutshell). Because some employers dont necessarily know as much about Amherst/Williams...and even less of Haverford and others, how successful are grads in securing the higher paying jobs? This is probably something hard to determine...</p>
<p>I worked at a large Manhattan law firm for years......the partners were mostly Ivy Leaguers.....some were preps growing up and some weren't.......they all had "fire in their bellies' though.....never saw people work so hard.....I did notice some of the Ivy grad paralegals, though, took great exception to grunt work.......where the kids from SUNY or wherever were happy for the opportunities they were given.....there was a noticeable sense of entitlement in some of those 20-somethings....</p>
<p>This isnt such a graet post. Only an ignorant person would say that Ivy League schools automatically equal more money and job oppurtunities. Yes, they look prestigious but there are so many other factors---yes, most are BOOK SMART but are they STREET SMART. do they have motivation, killer instinct in business, etc. O YES, many of the brilliant people ever dropped out of High school and had no college education(heman hesse, mark twain, etc.) Bill gates is the richest and dropped out</p>
<p>My younger brother took the SATs once, sick and not giving a darn, and got in the THREE DIGITS!!!! Yes, 3 digits! He went to a terrible third tier undergrad school, and was accepted to an Ivy grad school and dropped out before getting a master's. He is brilliant, literate, witty, informed, insightful, well-read, and nets a half a million dollars a year, not including what he pumps back into the business. Like me, he started his own business, and like me, whenever we advertise for help our floors fill up with faxed resumes from out-of-work Ivy grads. </p>
<p>That's my anecdote!</p>
<p>nedad, your story is one worth telling because it's an exceptional one like the Bill Gate's story. But law firms, invesment banks, consulting firms etc. are filled with ivy grads making more than a half million a year. As the mother of an ivy bound child and one at a State college I've really had my kids look at the type of jobs they're interested in and figure out where their role models went.</p>
<p>But they are also filled with graduates from other colleges and universities. It is also important to distinguish between HYP undergraduates and graduates of their professional and graduate schools. The latter are filled with non-HYP undergraduates. I guess my point is that too many posters, parents and students alike, get caught up in the elite college hype utilizing asumptions such as greater pay, more opportunities, "critical mass of like-minded students" and then are distraught when they are not Ivy bound for their undergraduate work. Perhaps a new/old definition of what constitutes a successful college experience is in order so that students/parents can make more informed decisions regarding their undergraduate careers.</p>
<p>There is an oft quoted study on this site that vonvludes that if you could have gotten into a top college, you will do equally well even if you don't gp. On the whole, I believe this. There are just some go getters that by hook or by crook and going to get where they want to go. However, for a almost 3 decades, I've seen what doors the words Harvard and Yale open. I've felt the far reaching benefits on the alumni network. I do understand that this isn't only unto to ivies, but there are select schools, most very selective, that confer benefits typical schools don't in many ways. I do think it's important for young people to understand this. You will not work at a top NY law firm if you didn't go to a top law school. Going to an ivy and a top law school is even better, the old boys will give you the wink, your shot at partner already has votes stacked on your side.</p>
<p>I think the Ivies are generally better if you want to go into academia. Sure, Economics at the University of Michigan and at Princeton might not be too different...but Classics at the University of Connecticut vs. at Harvard are much different.</p>
<p>I agree with much of what's been posted above.</p>
<p>I used to work for a well-known investment bank. (hey kirmum, you got those documents out yet?).</p>
<p>I wouldn't have gotten in there without my Ivy degree, I'm reasonably sure of this.</p>
<p>In these particular fields, big-league law, investment banking and consulting, pedigree matters. I think the law firms are the worst about this. Three reasons: i) old-boy network; ii) they genuinely want the smartest people; iii) they constantly need to get hired, and the credential is useful for this because it provides some suggestion that you might be smart to people who don't actually know you.</p>
<p>Both before and after this job I worked in various other environments, outside of NYC. These included regional investment banks and a Fortune 500 company. In these other places pedigree also mattered, but the pedigree was different. The "old-boy network" at these places revolved around the best state universities and private colleges in their region. They were far more likely to interview at these places than at, e.g., Dartmouth or Brown. At one place I was actively discouraged from recruiting at my alma mater, out of concerns about recruiting yield and retention. They were much happier trying to attract the smartest grads they could from State U, who would work harder for less, and wouldn't jump ship at the first opportunity. All of the law firms and investment banks where I live now are stocked to the brim with grads of the local schools.</p>
<p>As an aside, these regional people as a whole work fewer hours and have much shorter commutes than their NYC counterparts, while still making a good living, particularly on a cost-adjusted basis. </p>
<p>My experience is that once you're in a firm what matters most is what you do from that point forward. So any initial benefit does wear down. Outside of the rarified air of NYC, I've reported to a number of people over the years who graduated from colleges I stuck up my nose at. And coworkers from "bad" schools that were promoted over me. I had to confront the fact that some of these people were better at what they did than I was, and in some cases were smarter too.</p>
<p>Kirmum, neither my brother nor I is another Bill Gates. And half a million a year is nothing to sneeze at: an extremely tiny percentage of people in the US make that kind of money --- especially when working far, far fewer hours than investment bankers or lawyers. Finally, the average income for Ivy grads is far above the national average, but nowhere near half a million.</p>
<p>kirmum, let me tell you, I do not care what schools you have attended. These days, if you are not "making rain" you are not making partner at a lawfirm.</p>
<p>By all means concerneddad, as I posted above, many of the well connected fell off the partner track early on. A foot in the door is more than most get, but you'll need to get the rest of you in that door on your own steam. Nedad, not sneezing, just pointing out the fact that there are pleanty of "he beat the odds" stories, but if a kid wants a more predictable route to a half million a year, it will be Harvard B School/Law school or the like.</p>
<p>"If a kid wants a more predictable route....." where is the evidence for such a statement beyond the anecdotal?</p>
<p>Salaries for top corporate law firms, banks, consultantcies are widely published. My Yale Law School class gathers stats on pay, and more than a million is very typical. I don't think there is any question that there are predictable pathes to this level of wealth.</p>
<p>lawyers in general I think make more than academics.
A friend who was written up as being one of top attorneys in Seattle a couple years ago, made $350 an hour then, I have no idea if that is high or average it seems high to me.
Their youngest went to Harvard but dads JD came from Seattle U. His wife who is a judge also went to Seattle U but her undergrad degree was from a small public university.
Our academic friends on the other hand did attend Ivy league schools but that was for Phds not undergrad, and while they are very successful earning fellowships and awards up the wazzu, they gauge their success by their research and by the contact they make with peers and students not by their bank account.
It would be a sad day when degrees are judged just by the dollar potential rather than by the education earned.</p>
<p>These people better make a lot of money. I just learned that to replace my house here with a comparable one in a comparable suburb in Westchester, NY would cost me an additional $500,000 or more over the value of my house here!!! Those are the real numbers!!!</p>
<p>I agree with kirnum about the "path" except only about 1 in ten who get their feet in the door make it through for the long haul. Maybe call it an occluded path? Most of the people I worked with at my bank are long gone from there. We all did well while we were there though, at least.</p>
<p>Emerald, I don't think this discussion is judging degrees, it's just stating which produce the highest salaries. At this point, with 4 kids to put through college, I am glad I landed in a job that gives us choices. More fate than precient planning.</p>
<p>Let me tell you what I know about this subject.</p>
<p>My dad is the President of a 300 million dollar corperation, however, he still tries to be active in the recruting initiatives. He says that his company has an accelerated program for grooming recent graduates to become company executives. Their starting salary is quite high, and it only goes up from there. He said that a mojority of the people considered for this program are Ivy Legue graduates, same with the mojority of those accepted. Well, that makes me feel worse to, since I won't be an Ivy grad probobly (only one school I am applying to is an Ivy). However, this is only their accelerated program, the regular program goes to many schools, but they have shortened the list because they were geting poor labor quality from lesser schools (such as Rutgers, no offense to anyone that goes there, I am just saying what was told to me). The still recruit from non Ivy Legues, like Carniege Mellon, Georgetown, Tufts and such. And if these applicants show their stregnth, then they will join the accelerated program. </p>
<p>Anyways, what I would like to do is work at an investment banker company, such as UBS or such, and its grad school the really matters for those types of companies.</p>
<p>Kirmum I am not arguing whether lawyers can make the kind of money you are talking about. The original question still has to do with the evidence for HYP undergraduates making more money than non-HYP graduates. The only hard data so far has come in the original posting to this thread. I think anecdotal evidence is useful but not to be confused with empirical findings.</p>