Ivy League recruiting

Yep, this is going to be pretty individualized. I can’t tell you how many people, here mostly, told me that my son’s scores were several ACT points below the bare minimum for anything but football at an Ivy. But that was because while they knew their kid’s sport, and maybe a couple others, they didn’t know ALL of the sports. There is a lot of variation between sports. There is a decent difference between schools too. Not just on how they handle this, but how they do things overall.

Plus different schools pick different sports to give more leeway to. You don’t build a basketball team like Harvard or a wrestling team like Cornell by insisting that those teams have the same requirements as everyone else.

And your position on the recruiting chart matters too. A few coaches were specific about it, others were vague, but all made it clear that the scores and grades they required varied greatly based on how much they want you. If you are playing on the level of an Big 12 basketball player, or SEC football player, or Big 10 wrestler your numbers are VERY different than the kid who athletically would fit in at either Harvard or Williams.

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As far as the NCAA requirement, it’s pretty irrelevant. If you can’t hit that you aren’t going to be able to pass your classes in the easiest major at the easiest of the Ivies. You still may need a number, but it it doesn’t get reported to the school as part of your application it doesn’t really matter what it is. If you have a 3.0 GPA, which probably is the minimum even for a NFL bound quarterback, you need a 13 on the ACT. Higher GPA needs even lower ACT/SAT.

If you can’t get a 13, you probably are going to struggle with college anywhere, even a school that has your tutors all but take your classes for you.

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Regardless of score, not enough people concern themselves with actual academic fit. Such a mistake. Any athlete will be a better if they are thriving in the other aspects of school life too.

This is pretty consistent with what we have seen in Ivy track recruiting. (1) Most everyone wanted tests, even if they are test optional in regular application process. (2) Athletes over 1400 seemed to be fairly straightforward, vs regular candidates who need to be over 1500 to be even in the game, so there is a very significant benefit in that regard, but they aren’t just letting anybody in. High academic D3 is somewhat more rigorous - mid-1400’s was the target.

Also important to note is both Ivy and the D3’s wanted to see rigorous schedules full of AP’s and Honors classes, so to the other posters points in the thread, you still need to be quite a good student.

Of course, as an athletic department, you aren’t going to blow your AI on women’s track, so I am sure this varies dramatically across sports.

Agree. There are 2 questions about academic qualification. 1 - can you get in? 2 - can you thrive or even survive once there? Those questions don’t always have the same answer.

I know kids who have either failed out or ended up transferring because they met #1 but not #2. And plenty more that didn’t have to leave but didn’t have a great experience because they were in over their head in most of their classes. Just using kids I know personally, the schools that happened at range from the Ivy League to a D2 where my D thought her dual enrollment class she took on campus with actual college students was easier than her HS classes.

It’s a bit like the athletic question. Many kids (and especially parents, frankly) are just focused on getting into the best school they can, whether that is academically or athletically. But you really have to ask how you are going to fit in once there. There are kids who struggle through their Harvard classes and think it was worth it. There are kids who play football in the SEC and never get any meaningful playing time and think it was worth it. But many, probably a majority, of those kids would choose differently if they could go back in time and drop down a level to a place they could thrive, not just survive.

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Question on behalf of one of my friend’s child.

The potential recruit went for their OV a couple of weeks back. The OV went very well. Although the student was ready to commit [this is their #1], no commitment was asked from any of the 4 potential recruits that were there during the OV. The coach mentioned that they would finalize all support recruits by 21-Oct. Since then, the student has been waiting to hear back from the coach.

Student has #2 [went for OV 4-5 weeks back] also but does not want to commit to #2 in the hope that #1 will offer support.

The parents and the child are very tensed. They don’t know whether #1 will come around or whether #2 still has spots available. If they wait till 21-Oct, wouldn’t that be too late to go back to #2? Any thoughts and guidance?

They should ask #2 when they need a decision by.

I don’t have first hand experience here, but I think this was discussed before. I believe that being under the gun for a decision it’s ok to be open with #1 about having to make a decision by certain date while emphasizing that they are their #1.

I am sure more experienced folks will chime in.

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Yes, this is the correct way to go about it in this case. To reiterate:

Contact #2 to see how much time they have.

Contact #1 that they have a deadline (prior to Oct 21)

This scenario is not uncommon, so the coaches should not be surprised by any of these requests.

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Do they need to tell #1 who is their #2? And to #2 who is their #1? Will pressing Coach #1 to expedite their decision making backfire in anyway? Can Coach #1 say that they are unable to expedite the decision?

In general, do coaches refuse support after a OV? If yes, under what circumstances?

I don’t think there is a need to affirmatively volunteer what other schools you are talking with or the order of preference. On the other hand, if a coach asks which other school has the deadline, I’d be transparent. In terms of them pressing for a preference, my kids’ responses were "I am down to my top choices, if the question came from not number 1. In this case, it probably helps to tell #1 that they are the recruits top choice and will commit to apply ED/REA if offered.

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Doubt this will backfire with #1. This situation is pretty common. Things usually only backfire if you try to play games and get caught in a lie. Coach #1 may very well say that they can’t expedite the decision. Then the recruit will need to decide whether to take the bird in hand or take a chance on #1. However, if the recruit is at the top of the Coach’s list, more likely than not, the Coach will be more encouraging even if the Coach can’t commit. If the response is tepid, it might indicate that the recruit is not at the top of the list.

Whether or not an offer is forthcoming after an OV depends on how many OV’s are offered relative to slots that Coach has and how the recruit was evaluated as a result of the OV. So sure, often an OV does not result in an offer.

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There are still a few more weekends for OVs. So school #1 is probably bringing in a group this weekend and/or next. Then they’ll prioritize. Oct 21 is likely when they expect the dust to mostly settle. It wouldn’t surprise me if they’re communicating before that (and for target recruits I’d think shortly after OVs).

Did coach #2 give a date to reply? Typically coaches will tell recruits when the6 need to know and they’ll hold the slot until then.

If you are pushing into that date and haven’t heard from coach #1 I’d check in, say you’re my #1 but I need to let my #2 know by x date. Coaches don’t ever mind honest communication like that. Most of them will tell you exactly where you stand.

But if you don’t need to press right now I’d wait until you do. You might hear back after this weekend when they learn their target recruit is a jerk or only cares about parties.

As far as telling coach #1 what the other schools are, no you don’t have to. But they probably already know where you’re visiting and they’re not going to be bothered. Telling the Princeton coach that Cornell is your second choice but needs an answer in a week will not raise a single eyebrow, for example.

Yes, generally they bring in more recruits for OVs than they have slots to give (less so at some of the programs).

Personal behavior can torpedo offers, or just not fitting with the team.

Then it becomes a numbers issue, and keep in mind that they are looking at the entire track program.

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Good advice here. If an offer comes, the athlete’s response should be along the lines of: “Great. I am really excited about this. How long do I have to make up my mind?” There doesnt have to be any mention of being the #1 choice. My son told the coach of what he thought was (and turned out to be) his #1 choice. The timleline he got back was a little fuzzy, but the coach promised to let him know if he was running out of time.

Likewise, a coach won’t mind hearing they are somone’s #1, even if they can’t offer at the moment. They are likely waiting for their top offers to decide and they might or might not need to reach out to their second picks. If the second pick is a close second, they might even push their top pick to decide a day or two sooner, depending on how they left things.

The game of musical chairs is hard, but our family was impressed by how professional all of the coaches we were in contact with were throughout the process. (I know not everyone has this experience)

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Coaches do this every year and they know they are better off waiting for faster runners to ‘trickle down’ from the more elite schools, rather than trying to push hard early to close. So by and large the D1’s who need to wait for those runners have been pretty flexible in timing. Coaches want to know you really want to be at their school, and competing hard, so telling them they are #1 , or top 2, or something like that is great (don’t lie, of course), but at best it will help only at the margin in terms of getting an offer relative to another runner.

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In general, honesty only helps you.

Different details because this was early in the process, but after a good conversation with my son an Ivy coach asked to have me call him. I’ve elaborated on this before, but I think when they talk to parents, they want to know 3 things: 1 are you supportive, 2 do you understand your role or are you going to be a disruption second guessing the coach, and for Ivies and D3s, 3 do you understand our system of no scholarship and does that work financially for your family.

On that call, the coach was leaning on me a bit to lean on my son to narrow his list. I told him my advice has been to talk to everyone until you have an offer. I don’t wanting him turning down coaches unless there is no chance he would go to their school. Since he ended up being a high recruit, that meant he had a lot of coaches in the pipeline. This particular coach had a need at his position, and wanted to lock him down. So he told me my son had an offer if he wanted it. It probably was a smart decision, because Stanford gave an offer shortly thereafter.

I don’t think that was his plan going into the call. The expectation was to make the offer over the summer. But he also knew my son was shopping pretty hard at some competitor programs, and he made a decision on the spot to give him an early offer to take him off of the market. I’m sure he wasn’t the only athlete the coach was talking to for that role. But he knew he had a chance to lock one down, so he took it it.

Point being, if they think or know you plan on taking an offer, they may accelerate their plan. Or not, I’ve seen it go both ways. But I haven’t heard
of anyone getting dropped for telling a coach they are under the gun with a second choice so they want to know where they stand with him, the first choice.

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S was pursuing a few Ivies. Went on OV to all of them. All the coaches said they were very interested in him till last week. They all came back this week to say that S would not be getting their support for admissions. Some were professional in their communication and some weren’t. But that’s for another time. S is sad as he had communicated to other coaches [ two of them] that he is settled on his top choices. To the Ivies that said sorry, he asked them for a support letter & they said they would give one. A few questions for the experienced people here -

  1. What are my S’s options now? He was hoping that one of these Ivies will materialize. He does not have any back up. Athletes of S’s caliber (and slower than him too) make it to Ivies all the time so this came as a big surprise. His academics and SAT scope great [way above average].
  2. Is there any benefit of a support letter from a Coach? Shall he do ED based on that? He does not have any other option for ED.
  3. Looks like he is realistically looking to get admitted in the regular cycle. Do athletic recruits get admitted in RD? If yes, is there still any value in reaching out to coaches now? Majority of them would be net new reach outs. How does he find out the coaches that still have slots available on their team?

Any other thoughts? Its a painful situation to say the least.

I’m sorry to hear this news. Here are my thoughts regarding your questions. It would help to know the sport we are talking about.

  1. He can reach out to the coaches that he had let go (the ones he told that he was set on his top choices). He should call or text them ASAP, like today. Just say it didn’t work out at my top choice (coaches are used to things changing rapidly and late in the process). He can reach out to new coaches, but again, right now, this weekend he should send an introductory email with stats and film. I know it’s too late for your S, but generally student-athletes shouldn’t let any coaches go (at schools they would attend) until they have made a verbal agreement elsewhere.

  2. Does your S want to go to these schools and not play his sport? Did the coaches say there would be a spot on the team for him if he did get in without coach support? The coach letter can carry some weight in the admissions process. More if the applicant will be on the team, less (maybe nothing) if the kid won’t be playing the sport.

  3. Some coaches likely still have ED spots, so he shouldn’t give up. Many athletic recruits get admitted in RD. If we are still talking about Ivy League schools, those admission rates in RD are low single digits. Maybe the coach letter helps a little, as I said above.

Thoughts @dadof4kids @politeperson @cinnamon1212 @coffeeat3

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Thank you for your responses. Here are a few answers. The sport is XCTF. My S wants to go to these schools and run there. The coaches offering letters of support say that they would love him to be a walk-on on their teams.

Helpful. XCTF recruiting does go late, so I definitely encourage him to start reaching out to coaches/schools again. The timing will be the issue though of course, as he might rather still apply ED/SCEA to one of the schools where the coach is offering ‘soft support’, rather than take a fully supported slot at a non-Ivy.

We will wait for politeperson to show up, they are an expert in XCTF recruiting.