<p>What are your thoughts on attending Harvard, Yale, Cornell, etc. with the best reputations for undergraduate school vs. smaller high quality schools where you have small classes and relations with professors (like Wash U., Emory, Tufts, Williams, etc.)? Schools like Harvard and Cornell are research universities were grad students often teach? Sure, you will get a great job out of schools like Harvard or Cornell (probably better than Wash U or Emory) but is that all that matters? This is an issue that brings me much conflict...</p>
<p>It is rather hard to generalize given that each school is different, and the characteristics of the student may be a good match for some schools but not others (e.g. your intended or possible majors may be a significant factor in finding the right fit, especially with smaller schools).</p>
<p>If you really care about class sizes, go to each school’s web site and see if the “schedule of classes” lists enrollment limits and actual enrollment in each class.</p>
<p>Of the 17 classes i’ve taken at UCLA, including the 4 i’m taking right now, i’ve only had one class taught by TAs (Latin III, which was taught by two TAs, and supervised by a prof.) They didn’t do the best job, but considering that i’m not majoring in either classics or latin, it wasn’t that big of a deal. Most of my classes have two lectures taught by a professor, and a discussion taught by a TA. So in that regard you get taught by some of the world’s leading professors, while at the same time you get the smaller environment you might see in a LAC (of the like 20 people in a given discussion, only like 5-10 usually go.) Small class sizes are nice, but so is working with some of the worlds leading authorities on things. I have friends who have done research projects with some of the worlds leading professors. Sure, you can do research at LACs too, i’m sure, but sometimes working with the people who are best in their field is a nice perk too. And that’s something you’d only get at universities like Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, and UCLA. And the hybrid, which combines the best of both worlds, namely Caltech</p>
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<p>You can also do a quick comparison by going to Section I.3 of each school’s Common Data Set where they’ll have a breakdown of classes by size range. Some Ivies and other top privates have a surprisingly large number of large classes. </p>
<p>Princeton, for example, has a lot of small classes (261 classes in the 2-9 student range, and 330 in the 10-19 range), which at first blush sounds pretty good: small classes (<20 students) represent 70.6% of Princeton’s 837 reported classes. But Princeton also has quite a few large classes: 54 classes in the 50-99 student range, and 38 in the 100+ student range. If you assume the average class size in the 2-9 range is 5, the average in the 10-19 range is 15, the average in the 50-99 range is 70, and the average in the 100+ range is 120, it appears Princeton students actually spend 33% more time in large (50+) classes than in small (<20) classes. That’s because each large class is, by definition, large, and has many more students enrolled in it; it’s not the percentage of small classes that’s the driving force here, so much as the percentage of large classes.</p>
<p>Cornell is even more tilted toward large classes:
2-9 students: 359 classes
10-19: 832
50-99: 246
100+: 135</p>
<p>Making the same assumptions about average class size in each range; it appears that Cornell students collectively (and on average) spend more than twice as much time in large (50+) classes as in small (<20) ones. </p>
<p>But I’d question the OP’s premise that Wash U. and Emory are going to be better than Harvard and Yale on this score. Wash U (9.8% of classes 50+) and Emory (8.9%) don’t score particularly well on this metric; Harvard (7.8%) and Yale (7.0%) actually have fewer large classes. Tufts is better at 5.4%; but some other major research universities are also in that range, like Duke (5.9%) and Chicago (4.7%). If you really want to avoid large classes, look at LACs like Williams (2.9%), Amherst (3.0%), Swarthmore (1.6%), or best of all Haverford (0.3% of classes 50+). According to Haverford’s Common Data Set, they have exactly 2 classes in the 50-99 student range, and none in the 100+ range. Thus at Haverford you couldn’t possibly spend more than 6.25% of your college class time in large (50+) classes, and the median student would spend no time whatsoever in them.</p>
<p>ClassClown My son will be a freshman next year at Cornell Univ - College of Engineering. This is what they say about Professors teaching classes:
“Most courses in the College of Engineering are led by full-time, tenured or tenure-track faculty members. Exceptions include professional writers who teach Engineering Communication courses and some of the First-Year Writing Seminars.”
Why would you think that Cornell has TAs or GAs teach many classes?</p>
<p>There are some great professors that provide excellent lectures but that’s not necessarily the same thing as interacting with them–that’s why they have TA’s for discussion sections. The argument for small class sizes is that it allows the professor to interact with the students and provide another form of teaching through discussion and being able to personally grade multiple and longer papers. That doesn’t automatically happen just because it’s a small school although your chances do improve. If you do attend a large school, it’s up to you to take advantage of a professor’s office hours and ask questions–don’t just wait for the discussion sections.</p>
<p>Although the use of TAs tends to be disparaged on these forums, the use of TAs in discussions supplementing the main class led by the faculty member can sometimes be an advantage. Basically, you get two instructors (the faculty member and the TA) who may explain things differently to help you understand some concept.</p>
<p>I agree with the advice about actually looking at the percentage of classes at a university that are what size: I think Ivies sometimes get lumped in, since they are indeed research universities and since freshman bio will have 400 kids or whatever in it, with state universities which have a very large portion of classes with 50+ people in them. There are huge classes here, but there are a ton of tiny ones, too.</p>
<p>It also deeply matters what you’re majoring in. I’m in a fairly niche social sciences/humanities subfield at an Ivy, so I’ve had a lot of smaller classes. I’ve taken 16 classes so far. 5 were 40+, 2 of which were 200+. (One of those was nevertheless the best course that semester.) 4 of the 5 were during my freshman year, and they all filled distribution requirements. Now that I have half of my distribution requirements complete and am moving higher in my major, even more of my classes are even smaller. So 5 of my 16 classes so far had more than 40 people. 3 more were in the 20-25-person range. The other 8 have had 15 or fewer, sometimes as few as 6. You want to go into economics? Pay careful attention to class sizes. You want to go into Women’s Studies? Probably will be less of an issue.</p>
<p>Another thing to consider: small colleges (LACs), offer fewer majors. It won’t much matter if you want to major in a vanilla subject (English, bio, math, poli sci, etc), but if you are a bio major who wants to specialize in Neuroscience later on, your options can be much more limited. (Amherst has a wonderful Neuro program btw.) Or, a language major who wants to focus on linguistics…</p>
<p>Top-schools often have smaller sizes and less TA’s teaching lectures. They also offer more opportunities for research and ECs, and more specific majors (BME vs. general engineering)</p>
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<p>Even some generally-thought-of-as-mainstream majors (like math and physics) may be limited at some or many LACs. An extreme example is the absence of any humanities or social studies major at Harvey Mudd.</p>
<p>I agree that LACs will be short in some advanced classes in majors, but Harvey Mudd is not a representative example. Constrained majors can be found in Universities as well. Kettering U is virtually an engineering only University (with Applied Math, Applied Physics and Chem thrown in).</p>
<p>Based on my own experience as an undergraduate at Chicago decades ago, I’m surprised to see references to classes at Ivies with 200+ students, Princeton students spending 33% more time in large classes than small, TAs leading discussions at UCLA, and half or more of UCLA students not showing up for those classes.</p>
<p>I don’t know if times have changed, if Chicago is (or was) all that different from other research universities, or if what’s being shared here is not very representative. The class size numbers I’ve seen in the last few years suggest that the Ivies have about the same percentage of small classes as the most selective LACs. But then, maybe bclintonk is on to something. </p>
<p>It’s not that I think large lecture classes have no place, but for $50K+ per year (or even for half that), I’d expect a level of engagement that includes frequent discussion and writing assignments, with copious, thoughtful feedback from a professor.</p>
<p>“There are some great professors that provide excellent lectures but that’s not necessarily the same thing as interacting with them–that’s why they have TA’s for discussion sections. The argument for small class sizes is that it allows the professor to interact with the students and provide another form of teaching through discussion and being able to personally grade multiple and longer papers.”</p>
<p>This is really what I was referring to…I have a friend at an Ivy League school who says that the professors don’t show up for scheduled office hours on occasion and are not approachable. I am concerned about class size AND interaction. NJmom23, I am really looking for the big picture, also I refer you to bclintonk’s post on class size figures…Thanks.</p>
<p>Go reputation. It’ll carry you further in your life I think.</p>
<p>My 2 Ds at Harvard have both had small classes - some under 10 - and have had close relationships with faculty. When the live-in faculty headmaster of D1’s residential House retired, she traded a Nobel Prize winner for a member of Time’s 100 Most Influential People. Class sizes may vary dramatically by major, but D1 only had a couple of very large lecture classes in the second-largest major on campus. D2 had one of the smallest majors on campus and has never had a large class. After 6 years as Harvard parents, we’ve found most of the H stereotypes to be inaccurate.</p>
<p>clown, I think you have to focus on the right fit for you – plus where you can get in and what you can afford. Visit and see what you like and don’t like. Consider the financial angle seriously. Harvard, Yale and, to a lesser extent Cornell, are insanely selective. The decision to choose them over WUSTL, Emory or Tufts may not be yours to make.</p>
<p>Williams as a small (~2000 students) liberal arts college is in a different category than the other mid-sized universities that you mention. It’s also very selective, but for sure the quality of education and personal attention is on a par with the larger universities.</p>
<p>Career success depends as much on the student as the school. Even at Harvard or Yale, you don’t just spend four years as a spectator then launch into a great job. You have internships, summer jobs, make connections, spend time at the career counseling center, network alums. Graduates of ALL of the schools you mention have the potential of being healthy wealthy and wise. ALL send their graduates to excellent graduate and professional schools. </p>
<p>So have a balanced list – reach/match/safety. Understand your finances. Consider small LACs, especially if your eventual plans will include a graduate degree. My son went to Williams for undergraduate and is now getting a masters at Cornell. For him, that was the best of both worlds, but it’s an individual decision.</p>
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<p>Here’s the thing: it’s not the percentage of small classes, but the percentage of large classes that’s the key variable (as I explained in post #4 above). Princeton does have a lot of small classes–around 70% of its classes have <20 students. But remember, each of those small classes is by definition small, i.e., only a few students are enrolled in it. Each large class is by definition large, i.e., a lot of students are enrolled in it. So when you add it up and figure out where students in the aggregate (and on average) are spending most of their time, it only takes a few big classes to equal the student class-hours spent in a much larger number (and percentage) of small classes. And Princeton has a lot of big classes: 11.2% of all its classes are 50+ students.</p>
<p>Swarthmore has a similar percentage of small (<20 students) classes, around 76%, so if you only compare the percentage of small classes, Princeton and Swarthmore look pretty comparable. But that’s extremely misleading, because at the other end of the scale, Swarthmore has only 2.0% large classes (compared to Princeton’s 11.0%) according to both schools’ most recent Common Data Sets. That’s a huge difference. The two schools really aren’t comparable at all in class sizes, despite the similarity in percentage of small classes.</p>
<p>Swarthmore’s CDS reports only 1 class with 100 or more students, accounting for 0.3% of Swarthmore’s classes. Princeton has 38 classes of 100 or more students. Princeton’s a bigger school, with roughly 3.4 times the number of students Swat has–but 38 times as many classes of 100 or more students, i.e., more than an order of magnitude difference in the number of extra-large (100+) classes on a per capita basis.</p>
<p>In the 50 to 99 student range it’s a little closer: Swat has 6 classes that size, Princeton has 54, so Princeton has 2.6 times as many classes in the 50-99 student range on a per capita basis.</p>
<p>If it’s any consolation, though, Chicago is much better: only 4.7% of classes have 50 or more students, less than half Princeton’s rate (though still more than double Swat’s).</p>
<p>Generally I think you can assume that at any school where the percentage of large (50+) classes is 10% or higher, the students in the aggregate (and on average) will be spending more time in large (50+) classes than in small (<20) ones, regardless of the percentage of small classes.</p>
<p>^^^^Princeton’s higher amount of >50 student classes compared to the colleges that you are comparing them to has to do with the greater emphasis on Engineering and Sciences at Princeton.</p>
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<p>Sometimes TAs are completely useless, especially if they’re out of their specialty area. Discussions are more meant for questions that come up from lecture, and considering that you can go to office hours to talk to professors (assuming you don’t have any conflicts) it isn’t that big of a deal.</p>