Ivy League school or MIT

Athletic Recruits
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Hey guys,

Lots of good discussion going on here. Looks like it’s getting off topic, and I’m gonna keep pushing it that way because I feel I should let out the information I have from going through this process 3 years ago. But first, I would say to OP that you shouldn’t overlook the culture-fit of a school as an important aspect for you, maybe more-so than athletics or prestige.

OhioDad, I looked up that section of the Summary of Ivy Rules for… etc. I found no mention of likely letters in the entire document (though I basically just control-F’d).

Personally, as of my experience a few years ago, all of what you said about the AI (Academic Index) is basically correct. And most else of what you said is correct if you replace “likely letter” with “coach’s support in admissions”. Ivy league coaches have a certain number of not-quite-spots-but-tips in admissions. For my sport, it was 18 tips every 4 years. These, like it has been said, are not guaranteed, but as long as you put the effort into your application and are in a semi-competitive range for the school (which it sounds like you are) they might as well be. These are the only way a coach can officially support an application - but that doesn’t mean he hasn’t had a conversation with admissions along the lines of “hey, if this top-notch student that’s also a legacy applied, I’d love it if he/she got in cause I would like him/her on my team”. To which admissions might reply, “seems like a good student - as long as they have good recs and essays, they’ll be in”. I’m pretty sure but not as sure that coaches give a list of all players to admission, including the ones they’re not officially supporting.

Separately, likely letters are distributed by a number of schools, including ivies, to applicants that are very likely to get in, usually like halfway through the process. They are not limited to athletes, and can be sent to any applicants.

As for NESCAC (where I ended up), each coach has a number of tips per year in each of A-band, B-band, and C-band. He has the most A, less B, and less C, but C provides more support than B which provides more support than A.

I actually applied to MIT EA with the coaches support and did not get in. Most coaches don’t have much pull, and while their support will help its still a good probability you don’t get in. I ended up being recruited by the NESCAC I attend after getting deferred EA from MIT, and verbally committed to them with support from the coaches and an RD application.

I would say, go with the choice that will make you happier, especially if there are a lot of other schools you like in addition to MIT. If not for that NESCAC working out, I would have been applying purely on academics a bunch of places and just trying to walk on. Walk ons are actually very common on the Ivy/NESCAC/MIT/UAA level because of the stringent admissions standards. But like I said earlier, go with the school that will grow you best as a person, and don’t reject a school because, as I thought a number of times “I don’t want to go to my parent’s school” or “I don’t want to use this advantage” etc.

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Good discussion on Ivy likely letters & slots. I won’t bother with the details, but my son finished the recruiting process this spring and he is an example of an athlete that got in to HYP using a coach’s slot but he never received a likely letter (his recruiting process was pretty confusing and drawn out).

We sweated his admission all the way until he got the official, regular decision notification. And no, while he is a very good student, I don’t believe for a second that he got in on his own using sports as an EC. I truly believe he got the slot that the coach promised despite no issuance of a likely letter.

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Here is the Ivy Agreement. See page 143 et seq.

http://ivyserver.princeton.edu/ivy/downloads/manuals/Ivymanual2011-12%20copy.pdf

Besides, walk-ons need to meet the applicable AI requirements (AI requirements apply to team members not just recruits) and they don’t get likelies

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From The Crimson, Recruiting a Dynasty
http://features.thecrimson.com/2014/recruiting/

"While the index of every applicant and admitted student is calculated, the tool was created to regulate athletic recruiting. At every Ivy League school, the average Academic Index of every student who receives athletic support in the admissions process must be no more than one standard deviation below the index of the previous four freshman classes. Students who walk-on to teams or are not given athletic support during the admissions process do not count for the athletic department index that the league monitors. "

Actually , there may be an error here. The AI requirement applies to the overall athletic cohort, not each individual. Although some schools will make each team meet the 1 SD mark.

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The likely letters are common short hand for what is referred to as probalistic communications in both the Ivy manual and summary of rules. In particular, look at subsection 3c on page 143 of the Ivy manual, which states specifically that recruits should be told to disregard any indication of a positive result from admissions other than a likely letter.

And I do not believe there is an error in the Crimson article. As I understand the process, a particular school’s or team’s compliance with the AI is determined by the supported athletes in that admission cycle. Hockey and Men’s basketball are slightly different, but my guess is that like football, the number of athletes who may be supported in any four year cycle is the same as the number of athletes who may be rostered. Since walk ons are not supported by definition, they would not count in that year’s calculation.

Which brings me to the last point. I assume we will now all agree that Ivy schools are limited in the number of athletes they can support. I assume there is also agreement that every supported athlete’s AI is used in the calculation for compliance. Given that, and given that schools are permitted to issue likely letters, and that there is no published or expressed league limit that is less than the number of athletes who may be supported, where exactly does this intermediate level of support fit in the process? Not only that, but what purpose would such a level of support serve? Either you are supported and your scores count against the AI (and are therefore eligible for an athletic likely letter) or you are by rule not supported.

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That is interesting, @varska

Two points I would like to make.

  1. According to the document linked below, which is produced by the Ivy League, "Team AI" and "Athletic AI" are defined in terms of "athletes" or "admitted athletes". I now understand this really means "athletes who were supported in the admissions process".

(Wait until I tell a walk-on I know, who thinks he was put on the roster in part for his AI)

https://www.mka.org/uploaded/college_counseling/Publications/AI_Guidelines_Worksheet.pdf

  1. I am sticking to my position that recruited athletes may, not must, receive likely letters:

“Admissions Offices at each Ivy school may offer some athletic and other candidates a “likely” letter, which has the effect of a formal letter of admission provided the candidate continues to have a satisfactory secondary school experience. Coaches may initiate the requests for these letters, but only the office of admission can issue a “likely” letter.” (emphasis added)

http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/apply/freshman-admission/information-for-athletes

Edit: Point 3. All of these are minimum standards. Any school may have stricter standards. Two years ago at an Ivy recruiting camp, the coach said that for his sport, each recruit had to meet the school’s overall standard, he couldn’t average out–so I am sure he was talking about one standard deviation, not 171.

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@fenwaypark, I think the disconnect is with the idea that there is some level of support between a likely letter and no help. Specifically, that an athlete who passes a formal pre read at an Ivy should have a level of confidence in admission absent further evidence of coach support. I think it is pretty clear that the system is set up so there are supported athletes, who are eligible for a letter, and then non supported athletes. That is not to say that there aren’t athletes who because of vagaries of timing or whatever get support but are not issued a formal letter. In fact, I believe the son of your fellow Red Sox fan on this board was one such example. But too often we hear some variation of “the coach only has two likely letters to give, but because my stats are good he thinks I can get in without that level of support”. Given the position the OP is in, and the fact that s/he has not answered whether she has been promised support for a letter, I think it is a distinction worth pointing out.

One other point about the MKA worksheet. I am pretty confident that subsection 3, team AI, is specific to football only. To my knowledge, no other sport uses the formal band system, at least on a team basis.

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We faced this same dilemma a year ago - my son plans to study computer science and was recruited by both MIT and Ivies for his sport and his dad is also an Ivy alum. My advise would be to take the coaches up on official visits this fall (and schedule an unofficial with MIT) - staying with members of the team was key to solidifying my son’s priority list.

After all of his visits, he decided that in spite of being offered an Ivy Likely Letter he wanted to roll the dice with MIT and apply there for EA since that was where he felt he best fit. He ended up being deferred from the EA round. As he was focusing on his RD apps, we were surprised to learn that a few Ivy coaches still had likely letters to offer him. But he again declined those stating that “until his status with MIT was resolved, he couldn’t commit to another school.” In the end, it all worked for him and he was admitted to MIT in the regular decision round.

I agree with others who have posted here that the support of an MIT coach doesn’t come close to the guarantee of a likely letter. But it is a significant advantage! At our local gathering of accepted students this spring, 4 of the 6 kids in attendance were recruited athletes. All are great students too but it seems like the athletics helped put them over the top.

Best of luck to you!

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@Ohiodad51

Not to belabor too much more, unless other posters wish to pursue, so just two things.

First, it is still my belief that there is support (slot–with or without a LL) or no support from Ivy coaches. Anything other than coach support relating to athletics in Ivy admissions is tantamount to a nice Extra Curricular activity.

Second, make that former Red Sox fan, things just changed after 2004 (although I am still a fan of their ballpark).

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Hmmm… This looks just like a post with from someone who had the exact same experience last summer. Who should have already made his decision… Your younger self maybe? Or just pulling everyone’s leg?

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@pbearallday Thanks so much for the help. I do get caught up in not wanting to go to my parents school and that it’s an undeserved advantage, but I just have to look over that. I ended up going with the ivy league school. I think it’s a better fit for me as a student because it has a much wider range of subject matter to choose from. Athletically I might be out of my league, but I’m in it for the education anyways. The time commitment might become a grind, but we’ll see!

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Congrats! Sounds like the right decision.

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@Ohiodad51 For a bit of further clarification on the likely letter use, at least at Princeton, coaches can throw their support behind a recruit in admissions without a likely letter. My son is a rising senior and recruited varsity athlete. During his recruiting time, some recruits who were being pursued by other D1 schools received likely letters. Some did not. All who the coaches stated they were supporting were admitted.

We spoke in person with the coach and he was clear on how many athletes he could support per year and communicated directly with each one, double checking that each of the athletes intended to come if admitted. We watched in subsequent years as the same process ensued, with some receiving likely letters and some not. However, all supported recruits received a pre-read by admissions and again all were successful in admission.

I would suggest that the policy around use of likely letters varies from school to school and athlete to athlete within the Ivys.

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@Cantiger, I believe you’re correct. Ivies will send likely letters to recruits when they have to, e.g. if someone they want has athletic scholarship offers elsewhere and won’t commit without the assurance of a likely letter, but I don’t believe that all Ivy recruits that a coach uses one of his/her defined number of slots on necessarily gets a physical likely letter.

A related wrinkle is that some recruits will get likely letters, but after they have already verbally committed and applied EA or ED at the school. So ultimately they get a likely letter prior to the official acceptance letter, but at the time of pushing submit on the application, they are going on the coach’s word. With late October official visits, there just may not be time to get a likely letter from admissions prior to Nov. 1.

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@cantiger, thanks for your comments. Just so everything is clear, my point is that there is no intermediate level of support in the Ivy League as we hear so much about on this board. Either a recruit is being supported, and hence eligible to receive a probabilistic communication (likely letter), or the recruit is not being supported. Although it apparently happens, I can’t for the life of me figure out why a school would offer support within the AI system but not offer a letter. I would have to believe a school that operates that way in a particular sport would be at a pretty severe disadvantage with other schools who do offer letters. Forget the physical letter, just the idea that one coach can say an athlete’s entire application was read and passed on by the director of admissions, or the admissions committee, however it works, would put a school at a pretty distinct advantage over a school who only offers a pre read and says they will support an athlete but that admissions has the final word. It just seems a strange way to operate given the way the system is set up. Certainly in my son’s sport the normal process ends with a letter being issued by admissions sometime after application.

And @bluewater2015 I believe that the only way likely letters can be issued under the rules is after a complete application is on file.

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@Ohiodad51 yes that’s my understanding, that admissions will only issue a likely letter after a complete application is on file.

I just mean that in some cases recruits may have their letter in hand prior to the Nov. 1 early application deadline, if the timing of the official visit and the team offering support allows submitting the application in time for this to happen - which seems to me to be preferable from the recruit’s point of view, as then they will have the security of the letter before foregoing the opportunity to apply somewhere else early. In some cases they will get it after Nov. 1, in which case they are taking the coach at his/her word (which with clear communication, should be fine).

I’m talking about sports where things tend to be decided by the early deadline . . .

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@Ohiodad51, the following is from the Ivy League website:

The majority of Ivy League athletes receive likely letters however admissions approving an application without issuing a likely letter occurs frequently. Most Ivy League athletes apply during the ED/ SCEA period and sometimes an athlete won’t decide about which school to apply to until just before Nov. 1st. One could reasonably expect a likely letter to be issued three weeks after submitting an early application and the Official decision would be issued mid Dec., a difference of only three weeks at best. Some athletes may be also looking at other schools such as Stanford , Duke, Vanderbilt, or Berkeley who can offer a NLI (which is not an offer of admission) Nov 15 and the Ivy League coach may wish to encourage the Admission office to issue a likely letter in that case. For others the difference in three weeks for admission notification does not make that much difference (is an athlete going to decline an offer of early admission because a likely letter was not issued?). For an athlete who applies during the regular decision period the difference in time between a likely letter being issued and official notification can be much greater and for those athletes a likely letter is more important.

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@bluewater2015, I get you. My son had to wait until after the EA deadline which made for a tense couple weeks! Especially since he committed in the summer. Would have had to make some really difficult decisions come the RD deadline if he would have had to rely only on the coach’s affirmation of support.

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@Ohiodad51 - i am curious to know about the two students you know who were recruited for crew at MIT. Did they have national/international level accomplishments outside the classroom? Science fairs/Olympiads/rowing competitions? Just wondering if a person with very good (not perfect) academics in the MIT range but without that level of EC can be admitted if they have been recruited as a rower. Thanks!

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I can’t answer for MIT, but for Ivy League, an athletic recruit with academics in the range needs no other EC’s other than the sport.