Ivy League school or MIT

Athletic Recruits
1

Here is my situation-updated from previous posts to incorporate both of the sports I play:

An Ivy League school coaching staff said they would support my application in admissions if I wanted to go there, but I wouldn’t get much/any playing time. (I have a high academic index and father went there so they are kind of taking advantage of my academic strengths rather than my athletic ones). It’s also a D1 program, the team is one of the top teams the nation, and a lot of the players take the sport very very seriously. People are on the olympic team at this school. I am definitely not going to be on the olympic team. I want to be successful in the future and don’t want to major in my sport. But because of how time consuming the sport is, it would be very difficult to be an engineering major (which I want to be). However, if I were to commit, the chances of getting into this school with support from coaches increase drastically. But I don’t want to be stuck in a sport I’m not super passionate about, and I don’t want to get in and then quit.

I also play another sport (which I like a lot more), and the MIT coach is interested in me for that sport. It’s a D3 team. Honestly, I’d rather play D3 because it’s more for the love of the game than playing D1. I’d see playing time–if I were to get in. Coach’s support at MIT helps, but from what I hear, it definitely doesn’t help as much as Ivy league coach’s support. That’s the dilemma. Getting in.

Should I take the route of highest probability and commit to a prestigious Ivy league school where I’d be an accessory player on the team, or do I gamble and shoot for MIT where the student-athlete aspect of life appeals to me more?

My parents are set on me applying to the ivy league school because they want me to use the sport to get in then quit. What life lesson would that be teaching me? Whenever I bring up MIT they say “you don’t want that” and “if you don’t choose this ivy league school you’re making a big mistake”. A part of me feels like if I don’t go with the ivy league school I am wasting a great opportunity, but another part of me feels like I don’t want to be unhappy playing a sport I’m not 100% passionate about at such a demanding level.

My scores are on point with the MIT admissions statistics if that makes any difference. 35 ACT, 800 on Math subject test, waiting for the score for my science test.

Any advice, wise words or comments would be appreciated.

2

Wow your parents are pretty aggressive in their comments and I find them ridiculous comments for an engineering majo–, how would MIT be a mistake? But you can’t get an early commitment from MIT? Did you ask the coach how much of a tip it would be? If it is a total gamble maybe locking in the Ivy would be better. Many are qualified for MIT and don’t make it in. Why would they bother to recruit you and if they don’t need you? Why would it be so demanding if you are an accessory player? I don’t know what else to tell you. I would think it comes down to how much you would like to attend the Ivy regardless of the sport aspects.

3

Well, there are a lot more to sports, particularly in college, than how much PT you get.

My personal perspective is that your priorities seem reversed from what you are describing. If I were kind of lukewarm on my sport and felt confident that academics were my priority, I would take the likely letter, give a good solid effort to the team and my sport for at least a year, and if it did not work out I would quit, just be a student and not look back. I think that is one of the great things about the Ivy League, the ability to prioritize academics, and stop a sport if it interferes with that effort. It may turn out that the sport is too much and then again life as a college athlete may appeal to you and you might enjoy it. Try not to go in with preconceptions.

If, on the other hand, athletics were the priority then I might think about waiting on MIT. But two points on that front. One, you have no way to know whether you will actually be competitive on the MIT team until you are on the field. It could be harder than you anticipate to get PT, and it also could be relatively easy and you get bored. It’s tough to make a college decision based on what your assumptions are about eventual playing time as a high school student. Two, you could get left at the altar with admissions.

In starkest terms, that is the choice before you. Risk your success as an athlete for an education you find to be an “amazing opportunity” or risk getting shut out of that amazing opportunity so you can have a better shot at a successful athletic career.

Now, I am assuming that since you are talking to an Ivy and MIT that you are also talking to several other schools, and that there may very well be some really great schools that will wait for you to apply ED to MIT and see if you get in so the choice may not really be quite that stark. Personally, I would think very carefully about what my backup plan was if I decided to forgo the likely letter and wait on MIT.

4

“But you can’t get an early commitment from MIT?”

There is non-binding EA, but no sort of “commitment” that any MIT coach can give before that. There is much more certainty for Ivy recruits than MIT recruits…even though neither is a sure thing until it is done.

“Did you ask the coach how much of a tip it would be?”

It’s MIT. Don’t ask a fudgeable question like that. Instead, ask the coach how many recruits he/she has highlighted to Admissions in the past couple of years and how many were admitted.

“Why would they bother to recruit you and if they don’t need you?”

OP has already answered this one. If the policy at this particular Ivy is that the average AI for the entire team has to be at a certain level (as opposed to each athlete having to have an AI at a certain level) then a high-AI second-string caliber candidate allows the coach to recruit a low AI star. And since this applicant has a high AI and is a legacy, who knows, maybe the coach has confidence in the application process without athletics and is not even using a slot.

“Why would it be so demanding if you are an accessory player?”

All members of Ivy teams work equally hard. Coaches do not assign different times to the weight room or other training based on skill level. If anything, second-stringers, on their own, work harder. The only part that might be less demanding for second-stringers is if there are limits on the size of travel squads and a second-stringer is not chosen to travel for a particular trip.

5

@Ohiodad51 From my perspective, if athletics were my top priority, I think I’d choose the ivy league school. It has a D1 program, high competition, lots of practice time, free gear, top notch coaching, etc.

I don’t think people go to MIT if athletics are their top top top priority. At MIT there is a two hour period each day during which sports practices are allowed. That is what I want in my student-athlete experience. Like I wrote previously, I don’t want to major in my sport. Most D1 programs have practices and lifts that far surpass the two hour time slot, leaving students exhausted and ultimately affecting their academics. Kids have tried to major in engineering on the ivy league team but couldn’t end up pursuing it because sports were so demanding.

Sure, they could have quit the team, but they didn’t. This whole “get in and quit” thing seems very wrong to me. I don’t quit things and don’t plan on it. It’s not something I’d be willing to do.

6

Definitely a pickle given the lack of LL at MIT. How about looking at other Ivy League schools where you might get more playing time? Such as Ivy whose team is weaker but school is still strong? Your parents need to not pressure you. As for MIT, admissions are such a longshot for anyone and also, would you be happy there socially? Prestige is not everything. Focus on fit. Tough to pass up leverage of Ivy LL. I’d go to the Ivy in question or another Ivy if you get LL. Are other Ivies interested in you? I played a sport at an Ivy and was one of the weaker members of the team. But I did it all four years and don’t regret it. Could have been high performer on D3 team. You seem like NESCAC would be good fit but for Engineering major, which I don’t think those schools have. I like @Ohiodad51 idea of trying it for a year. What is feasibility of switching sports once your in Ivy or trying to get recruited for that sport at Ivy?

7

@shakeshow. Think about it from the perspective of academics. You are debating, apparently, the near certainty of admission to an Ivy school you have told us will be an amazing opportunity for the far less certain chance of attending MIT. On the facts you have given us, the only difference is that you think you would enjoy playing a sport more at MIT than the Ivy. I am just trying to give you a different perspective so you can help clarify the choice in your mind.

I am sure that if you are being recruited this seriously in two different sports that there are other schools involved, and the fact that you haven’t mentioned them means that these two schools are your clear choices for where you would wish to attend college. If there are other schools you like, then maybe one of them can provide you a better blend of certitude and a more laid back athletic experience.

And no one is telling you to get in and quit. What I am saying is that one of the great things about sports in the Ivy (or MIT for that matter) is that you are not locked in to your sport if you feel it is interfering with your academics. If you go in with an open mind, and find that you can not compete at the level necessary while still putting adequate emphasis on your studies, stop playing. It happens. College is not high school. Guys leave teams all the time, even scholarship teams. Do most people who enter as a recruited athlete stick with it for all four years? Yes. And I would be willing to bet that most are glad they did regardless of the amount of PT. But some guys leave every year.

I would also caution you about the assumptions you are making concerning college athletics. I would not automatically assume that you will get a ton of PT at MIT, or that you will get very little at the Ivy. A hundred years ago, some of the less heralded members of my own recruiting class in college ended up being regular contributors during junior and senior years. Athletic advancement is not linear. I doubt that it was for you in high school, and there is no reason to assume that it will be so in college. Similarly, I would not assume that your only commitment to the team at MIT will be during that two hour time slot. The Ivy League, and the rest of the NCAA, are also limited to two hour practices a day (in most sports). Since you are talking about majoring in engineering, I will assume that the Ivy you are discussing is either Princeton or Cornell. Princeton, at least, has a three hour period each day when no classes are held so that the varsity teams can conduct their two hour practices, which sounds similar to what you are describing at MIT. Of course, this time slot and two hour limit does not include captain’s work outs, conditioning, treatment, meetings (I think) or weight training. I would be willing to bet that if your sport happens to be one of the handful MIT seems to care about (crew most of all) that you will have similar “off the books” requirements. Of course, by all accounts the only sports where the coaches at MIT can be any help at admissions happen to be the sports they care about, and if your sport is not something MIT seems to focus on, then he coaches are likely zero help with admissions and you are stuck with the crazy admit rates. Overall, yes, the time commitment in D3 will be less than D1, even Ivy D1. But it is likely still substantial.

8

@shakashow, it seems pretty clear from your posts that you have zero interest in competing in this sport st the D1 level, and kudos to you for realizing the huge time commitment required.

Also, while you could do the 'take the LL and quit" thing (which is far different than Ohiodad51’s suggestion of giving it a solid effort for * at least * a year), I respect your choice to not go that route.

So what’s left? Apply in the general pool at MIT with little if any coach support? You have great academics, but I still wouldn’t bet on being accepted. Apply to the Ivy without support? Again, great academics and legacy status - but it’s a crapshoot, esp if this is HYP.

Maybe also consider Swarthmore, D3 liberal arts with an engineering program. Or possibly Cornell or Dartmouth, strong engineering plus a little better odds of admission than HYP

9

I agree with others that admissions support at an Ivy, assuming your academics have been reviewed with admissions and the team is using one of its slots on you, is worth a lot more than a team’s support at MIT. That’s not to say admission is certain at an Ivy in this scenario, but with admissions pre-read and team support the chances are generally high.

My impression is that a good number of applicants with team support don’t get into MIT and there are some posts on the MIT forum regarding students who turned down Ivy likely letters and then didn’t get in at MIT.

It’s a tough call but I can see why your parents are advising you the way they are.

10

I think there is another option, if I am reading the original post correctly.

Apply EA to MIT with coach support for sport #2, which the OP likes better than sport #1

(Bottom line, I think–almost embarrassed to say because it is so hackneyed–just choose places to apply that would be the best fits academically and socially, with due attention to reaches, matches and safeties.)

11

^ I agree that would be the best option, but it seems support at MIT is pretty weak/non-existent for anything other than crew.

12

MIT is a pretty data-driven place. Don’t need to rely on what “seems” to be. I have witnessed a case where a prospect asked the coach how many recruits have been highlighted to Admissions and how many accepted in the past couple of years.

I guess the coach could have lied, but the answer turned out to be about a 40% acceptance rate for recruits that were highlighted–in that particular sport, not crew–compared to about an 8% acceptance rate at MIT overall.

With that kind of information, OP would be in a better position to make a decision, I think.

13

That 33% sounds about right for MIT.

By way of comparison, for Ivy League recruits where their academics have been pre-read by admissions and a team is using of one of its limited number of slots, from what I’ve seen and heard the admissions rate is much higher. Not 100% - someone could always have bad letters of recommendation or something - but it generally seems to work out.

With the Ivies, it’s important to be clear that a coach is using a slot - which makes a big difference in admissions - and not saying something like, “we don’t need to use a slot on you because we think you can get in without it”, “you’re on our larger list”, etc.

14

This is a tough situation. It really sounds like you want to go to MIT. If you get in and go, you will have no regrets. The problem (as others have stated) is that there is no guarantee you will get in to MIT. And, coaches have little sway there compared to the Ivies - who are given dedicated spots. If you want the “sure” thing, go with the Ivy. But I hope it really is “sure.” I personally know people who have gotten to into schools, including Ivies, on their sports who quit after getting in - or after the first season, so you wouldn’t be alone, but you may not feel good about it. If you go that route, look into a club sport you enjoy.

You should also talk to your parents. Maybe they are worried you won’t get into MIT or if they just don’t want you to go, maybe they are misinformed about the school and your reasons.

15

OK, just so everything is clear, there is really only one type of documented support in the Ivy league, and that is a coach’s request to admissions that they issue a likely letter. These letters can be issued by admissions once a full application is submitted and after October 1 of your senior year and to my knowledge the issuance of a likely letter is virtually identical with an offer of admission. Unless the Ivy coach is speaking in terms of support for a likely letter, I doubt seriously there is any quantifiable support he can provide because doing so would run contra to the entire league likely letter system. In short, if he isn’t getting you a likely letter he is not doing anything for you, and I would feel no sense of obligation at all to the sport. If he is getting you a likely letter, then you are in, no question.

Language about “slots” and the accuracy of pre reads is more generally the type of language used on this board to discuss recruiting in the NESCAC conference primarily and involves a different thing. Supposedly, a coach’s support and a positive pre read can mean quite a lot in the NESCAC, and if you follow this board it would appear that recruits meeting both those criteria have a very good shot at admission.

Based on my admittedly small personal circle of MIT recruits (two - both crew), MIT has neither a Likely Letter system like the Ivys or a “slot/tip” system like people on this board subscribe to the NESCAC. To my knowledge, MIT does not provide pre reads, although it does allow coaches to submit a list of applicants they are supporting. What that support means is shrouded in mystery however, and while both kids I know personally eventually were accepted at MIT, they both sweated bullets when making the decision to spend their ED chip there because they were given no real definitive guidance from MIT at all.

To illustrate the problem, and taking @fenwaypark’s post and extrapolating that to all athletes at MIT, while a 40% chance of admission sounds good relative to the regular applicant pool, the math changes for a recruited athlete being asked to apply ED in exchange for support (apparently a virtual requirement for most sports). In that scenario, and realizing you get one ED shot, a 40% chance at MIT sounds awful dicey when the alternative is a 100% chance at Yale, or a 90% chance at Amherst.

16

To everyone and no one in particular:

When I use the term “slot” it is specific to the Ivies–not NESCAC or MIT or other D3s. The way it works is that each year, each coach negotiates with Admissions about how many recruits may be admitted–assuming of course all the academic and character issues are satisfied based on pre-reads and other criteria. This number can vary from year to year for each sport depending on how many players are graduating from each team and any particular situations affecting other teams, since the total number at each school is usually fixed.

For Ivy baseball it is usually 6-8. Tennis 2-3. Basketball 3-4. But again these can vary…year to year and school to school. If a slot is used for a recruit–after that recruit passes the academic and character qualifications–it is a 99.9% chance that the recruit will be admitted.

Likely letters are another story. Each Ivy school and sport has its own procedures. LLs are almost always given to slotees in sports where the D1 early signing period is in November–prior to the ED/SCEA admissions announcements for Ivies, which are usually mid-December. In fact, that’s mainly why they were invented, so that the Ivies could compete against D1 athletic scholarship schools. LLs are very nice to have and the practice is widespread. Again, no need to question what to expect, just ask the coach.

When I use the word “tip” I am referring to what happens in NESCAC, MIT and lots of other D3s. Coaches highlight, and sometimes rank recruits in the order of athletic desirability, in the admissions file, after they have been screened through a pre-read or other procedure for basic academic and character adequacy. Typically, there will be more applications highlighted (tipped) than anticipated roster spots available.

So if any Ivy coach is trying to fill 7 roster spots that Admissions has granted slots to, he/she will allocate those 7 slots to 7 recruits (and hope none of them decline admission). If a NESCAC/MIT coach is trying to fill 7 roster spots, he/she will tip more than 7 in the hope that at least 7 will be admitted.

17

Ohiodad51, I agree with your thoughts. I’m not sure that all the Ivies issue likely letters to all of their targeted recruits, and when things go down to the wire a LL may be issued after the Nov. 1 EA/ED deadline (and thus the student may have to rely on a handshake deal with the coach rather than a LL in advance of Nov. 1). Still it’s a process with a lot more clarity than recruiting at MIT.

18

Yeah, I am going to disagree a little bit with @fenwaypark. Not just for the fun of disagreeing, but because I want to make sure that if the OP is following along, he gets the most accurate and up to date information we can give him. I am not saying you need to take my word as any more authoritative than another poster’s, but I just went through this process with my son last year and I read quite a bit of the material that is published on the topic, spoke frankly with several coaches and corresponded a few times with the Ivy League office. So take it all for what it is worth, and most importantly if there is something you are unsure of, ask the coaches recruiting you.

1)If in fact there was some method of supporting a recruit in the Ivy League other than providing a likely letter in accordance with the Ivy Common Agreement, then the Academic Index, would become meaningless. For that reason, I do not believe that there is any such support. Either you are being supported for a likely letter or your participation in the sport is just an EC on your application.

2)This is because there are very specific rules regarding each individual recruit’s academic index or AI. Simply put, every recruit must meet both a league mandated minimum AI, and be no more than two standard deviations below the average AI of the preceding entering class at the particular school. In addition, all recruits in any given class, excepting those who play certain designated sports (which follow rules specific to that sport), must collectively have an AI that is no more than one standard deviation below the average AI of the four preceding classes (I think). Again, if there was some method of support outside of the likely letter process, then the entire AI system would be meaningless. So if a coach tries to tell you he is supporting you with something other than a likely letter, ask him how that support jibes with what is laid out in Section 3B of the Summary of Ivy Rules for Ivy Coaches and Administrators. See what he says.

2)The league sets the maximum number of likely letters allowable to each school on a four year, rolling basis. This is based on a formula taking into account undergraduate population and varsity sports offered along with participation. Schools can choose to award fewer letters than those allotted, but can not award more.

  1. While for most sports, the number of letters allotted to each sport within each school may be subject to negotiation within the athletic department, certain sports (football, men’s basketball, hockey) are subject to different league limits because those sports have their AI calculated separately from the general pool of recruited athletes, and are subject to specific rules.

4)Likely letters are provided in sports that do not sign in November, specifically football, soccer and men’s water polo.

5)I know less about the NESCAC recruiting system than the Ivy, and even less about MIT. Based on discussions I have had with three or four NESCAC coaches, my impression is their support for athletes is more particularized than noted above. In other words, they are not just submitting a list in rank order and hoping admissions gives them some number of kids. The impression I received based on those conversations, the articles published by Bowdoin on this process, and what seems to be the general consensus on this board, is that NESCAC coaches can support individual recruits to admission, although that support may be expressed in different ways.

6)MIT may operate the way @fenwaypark describes. I have very little information about MIT outside of anecdotal discussions with the two kids I know personally.

19

Great, informative post @Ohiodad51. All I would add is that some schools/sports will automatically send the physical Likely Letter to all their supported athletes, others may only send it if requested. Either way, those who are supported are LL eligible and counted toward the numbers allotted by the league.

20

That is probably a much better way to say it @varska. There is one level of support provided for in the Ivy League, and that level is someone who is eligible for a likely letter.