In today’s world those schools are considered very good. Countless parents of bright students can’t or won’t pay $200k + for college. It really makes no sense. If you can go buy the same tasting pizza for $10 would you pay $50? No. My d who graduated this past year from a state school who is making very good money said to me after her first paycheck (and yes she always worked but now in a different tax bracket) was like damn I see why you complain. Shortly after college most people will never know where you went to school because its not very relevant. What is relevant is what you do. Its your demeanor and skills that get you the job and the college degree is a check mark. Not saying all schools are created equal but its what you make of the opportunity.
I’ve seen you mention this a few times. So I will take your comments as referring to my use of the term “toxic elitism”.
To be honest, it has nothing to do with any political viewpoint.
It is the concept of brand name above all common sense.
To some there is a propensity to not consider that a school deemed “lower ranked” doesn’t mean low budget. Or that it may be superior in a field or co-equal.
And there are times that the so called “non elite” option is better suited for one’s success. In that single case or that family. And the indirect denigration of that option leaves me as the reader, sorry for the student and parent. Sorry for how this may leave them feeling about their wonderful choice. Even if it’s not hpysm. Like many people really have that option in real life anyway. Lol.
Especially in some of the engineering and stem fields.
Toxic elitism also assumes that out of the 2.3mm new college students each and every year - we should offer advice by referring back to the 2000 students a year that choose consulting or investment banking as the career lodestone.
It’s toxic to an impressionable young mind or uninitiated parent. And it’s elitist.
Many people come here and make profound statements. Clear and resolute with assurance and authority. That school x is superior to school y. With no data other than their personal feelings, usnwr or other cherry picked supporting data.
Someone in this thread actually made a declarative statement that if the op wants to start a company that vcs will respect the MIT and Caltech grad over the UMass Amherst CS grad. This poster cannot possibly know. Because as anyone extremely familiar with VC and PE know, that’s not how it works.
And who was asking about Caltech or MIT. The options for the OP don’t include them.
See toxic elitism also includes the slight of hand tricks. If one can’t make a cogent point based on merits of the question, heck let’s throw in an IB here, a consulting there. Let’s add some other super elites, unrelated to the question at hand, to prove the point.
That elite trumps all mind set.
This approach hurts many students when they come here.
Only 50k to 60k or so spots exist in the entire collegiate ecosystem for schools with under 27 percent acceptance rates.
Where do the other 2.25mm students have left to go? Obviously they must suffer the despair of “state school”. As a pejorative.
In this case. Brown is a spectacular university and the much more selective school than UMass Amherst. No disputing that at all.
But it shouldn’t be an automatic default answer. Because it’s not in all cases, in all majors and for all families.
Schools that strong don’t need constant defense.
What students and parents come here for imho is for balanced and reasoned advice.
And sometimes that means we out aside our own past decisions or our embedded belief systems to consider well reasoned alternatives.
Not elite school or bust.
Make sure that if you do decide to attend UMass that your parents immediately put that 200K money into an account under your name. My concern is that they will change the “terms of your arrangement” once again after you have committed to UMass (just like they did when you applied to Brown and got in and now they don’t want to pay your way through college).
If I were your parents, I would have said you have two options: a) We will pay for all of your Brown undergrad costs or b) we will pay for all of your UMass undergrad costs and then give you 200K for graduate school, a condo, etc.
This way YOU are making informed choice, not them.
But instead with the current arrangement you really have no option but to go the cheaper route as no rational student is going to go into 160K debt for an undergrad degree, even if it is from Brown. It’s really a shame…if you were my kid you would be going to Brown in the fall and I would be paying for all of your costs…
It’s the OPs parents, not a boss at work. There is no “make sure to get the money up front” option to force them into. It’s their money to spend as they choose to spend it. If they want to make sure their kid doesn’t take the money and then transfer the next semester, they can do that. Or if they want to give it to the OP at graduation (like most parents on CC who are giving their kids large sums of money usually do), they can do that. I can’t imagine most parents, outside of the top 1*, give their 18 year old kids hundreds of thousands of dollars.
OP this is not “a shame”. You are incredibly lucky to have parents who are able to afford for you to attend a great college, especially for your major. As a bonus, they sound like wonderful people who are able to look past prestige and evaluate what is truly important. And not only that, are planning to give you a (beyond the paying for college) huge further gift of a large nest egg to help you get started after you complete your education! That’s amazing. You are very lucky to have parents who see what matters and have worked to make life easier for you, but also in a way so you won’t be a spoiled rich kid who thinks only a name brand has value.
Since you were still looking for advice, mine is to be happy and grateful for the amazing opportunities you have been given. Make the most of them. Allow a little bit of time to grieve for the paths you have to turn from and then fully embrace the wonderful path you are on! Enjoy it, appreciate it, don’t let yourself be bitter or resentful.
I’ve seen plenty of trust fund babies wasting their inheritances and plenty of penniless youth building their own wealth. I would rather give my children education, opportunities and experiences they crave than money or assets. However, OP’s parents are in no way obliged to give him any money, now or ever. It’s totally their prerogative to spend their money whichever way they want. OP can make requests but he can’t demand anything.
If all colleges cost the same for everyone then no low income student would ever be able to attend. How is a student from a family whose income is $20k/year supposed to pay the same as a student whose family makes $200k?
OP, why are you against going to UMass and saving the $200k for grad school? The median income in the US is about $60k. Your parents want to gift you more than 3 times that plus a free education at a great school. Meanwhile, on other threads, we’re counseling a homeless student who’s trying to cobble together enough aid for college so they can quit living in cars and tents, and working in exchange for migrant farm housing. Many, many families have no money for school. If they’re lucky, their children will be able to work 40 hours/week and commute to their local state school or community college. Those students have no financial safety net.
If you want the opportunity to start your adult life with a debt of $160k + interest and your parents are willing to cosign for it then nobody’s stopping you. Some employers shy away from students who carry such large debt loads and there are people who won’t date grads who have enormous loans to repay, but you’re certainly welcome to take the debt if that’s what you want. Have you figured out how you’re going to pay it back? How much would the total debt with interest be after 4 years? How will you pay if you don’t get a job right away? Or you get a job but it’s 5-figures and not 6? If you want to go into business the first long term business plan you need to write is your own.
Imagine you are deciding where to have dinner. The number one rated, Michelin starred restaurant with the famous chef and $100 price tag (Brown) vs. the local Italian restaurant (Umass), where the meals are $20. You know for a fact that the meals at the Michelin starred place are fantastic. But in this case, you want lasagna (otherwise known as Computer Science). The famous place specializes in seafood, but lasagna is on the menu as well. At the Italian place, the house specialty is lasagna and people come from all around to try it. Which one would you choose?
Sorry OP, I can imagine that you hoped to get a lot of support on CC for choosing your dream school, and that is not what you are getting. It is tough to give up a dream, but making a wise choice has its own rewards too. Congratulations on two fantastic options, you should be very, very proud.
^ Well, a meal of lasagna anywhere won’t burden you with crushing 6 figure debt. Picking another place to have lasagna won’t gift you with 6 figures in money ($200K, even at conservative 5% real returns would become $1.4M in 40 years; at 7% real returns, which is what the US stock market has averaged since WWII, that becomes $3M in 40 years).
So examine why you feel the way you do. Why about Brown made it your dream school? What aspects? And can you get those aspects in cheaper ways? One reason I am annoyed when people say something is “priceless” is because, well, no, actually, very few things are priceless. The love of someone you care for. I’m having trouble coming up with anything else, actually, because virtually anything else can be bought with enough money.
Referring to another’s post as toxic violates the rules of CC. In no sense can another person comment on someone else’s post using the word toxic and it not be intended as an attack. The word elitism is certainly fine to use as is arguing whether something is elite or not. What constitutes toxic always refers to poisonous. I believe some find their arguments weak so they use weasel words to strengthen them. It has been reported as such.
A few opinions regarding this thread:
- VCs do not give money to recent college graduates (it is very rare) so choosing your college based on that is a bad idea, even if it is MIT. (But that might get you a job and an equity position at someone else's startup).
- Brown's CS department is legendary and frequently under-rated re:Andy vanDam/Toy Story
- If your career goal in programming, I agree that it will be your skills and how you develop them over your career that will lead to success and not where your degree is from. Saving $$ for elite grad school seems like it might be a good idea. And I have a son at Brown and love it above all other colleges - but I have 3 true geniuses at my tech firm and they all went to 3 different SUNYs. One of them got accepted to MIT and could not afford it. The CMU guys are good too, just the SUNY guys are better (but that might be because I am too cheap to hire the top CMU guys!)
Whatever you decide, you’ll be fine. My advice is follow your gut and never second-guess or look back, no matter what.
Just as a FYI. Personally, I enjoy your posts and your insight.
At no time or at point is the use of any terms pointed at an individual. And I’ve reread a few times it’s been used.
It’s let say, a colorful euphemism, meant to describe an approach to decision making around many things. Including colleges.
But doesn’t mean everyone else’s ideas aren’t heard. Let the readers read and let chips fall where they may.
But debating is certainly a violation of the TOS. So Cheers and appreciate your perspective for sure. .
Here’s to the hope that we encourage open discussions without the need to label or claim superiority of thought.
The more ideas - the more better.
Data, first hand experiences, and humor all good…
Totally agree. And I love the idea of injecting some humor into these discussions.
The only problem with first hand experiences is they only happen at one institution.
And the use of the terms “elite” and “more prestigious” are ubiquitous here on cc. These aren’t facts. These are impressions. And generally formed by one’s own world view.
Definition below.
Elitist -
“adjective. (of a person or class of persons) (or college) considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society.
So when someone says why would anyone ever go to wake forest for free vs Stanford full pay. Stanford is so much more “elite” and “prestigious”…
Where do you go with that ?
Especially since the fact pattern for each individual case may lead to a different conclusion.
As an example , if the hypothetical above includes info that the family can comfortably pay and they want x career. Stanford all day long! If the family will need loans, well, hold on a second. That’s all I am saying. Not saying Stanford isn’t considered “better” by many. Not at all.
Just some food for thought for the OP. And OP I have no idea what you should decide ultimately. But your options are all solid and each can be a platform for your own personal success.
Ok. For some humor. Here’s my worst joke.
Horse walks into a bar. Bartender looks at him and says “Hey Mac, why the long face?”
@privatebanker We’re in basic agreement here, but if faced with the above, I’d ask the poster to list what, in their opinion, makes school X so much more elite ( as in “best in class”). This opens a discussion rather than closing it.
Here’s my latest bad joke:
What did the buffalo say to his son when he left for college? Bison.
That joke is great.
But something is in the air. A student who really needs help deciding between CUNY Baruch and Fordham as an example, with monetary questions and no at home support, will get 7 responses total. And 75 views. Ask about a community college as a parent with zero experience and you’re lucky to get a response.
Ask about Duke vs Princeton. Or Cambridge vs Yale, both full pay and step back - and watch the floodgates open. Like the decision for that student is nearly as crucial and vital to their ultimate success. Important sure.
I guess it’s just me. And maybe it’s not as bad is it seems. But its bothersome.
Below are the top three factors I discuss with my wife and two college kids about choosing the right college. This is just my opinion:
- high quality teaching/curriculum in the programs you are interested in
- at a reasonable price (public in-state schools)
- the school published graduation rate/alumni success
First of all, congratulations! Based on your very fortunate situation, I would choose UMass. I’m an alumni of UCSD, go tritons! but I wouldn’t recommend UCSD (due to cost) because you are out-of-state.
My suggestions- in your 1st year, stay in the dorms to make connections/friends and for the college experience. Invest the $160k in an index fund like the S&P 500. 2nd year, have your parents co-sign with you on a mortgage loan to purchase a real estate property near your campus (Amherst median price $340k approx). Use part of your cash for a down payment approx $68k. You would live there rent free (parents pay your portion) and rent out the rest of the rooms to college students. Occupy the same property until graduation. Hopefully you have positive cash flow starting in the 1st year. Continue to invest the remaining funds in an index fund or funds (diversify).
Upon graduation, find a full job/employer who will pay for your MBA or graduate school and go to school part time while working.
If everything goes as planned (no guarantees), you will have no student loan debt plus liquid & real estate investments generating cash flow. Max out your 401(k) at work.
Your investments with compounding interest will generate long-term wealth. Now you are set to start your own business.
Good luck!
@privatebanker -I thoroughly enjoy your posts, especially in this thread. To whomever reported our post as an attack, lighten up Francis.
@Postmodern -thank you for your post above.
We have the opposite situation of that of the OP. Our son, who has stellar SATs (1550 plus), 4.0 GPA from an top rated STEM school and what we thought were excellent extracurricular activities, was shut out at all of the prestige CS schools- MIT, Stanford, CMU, Berkeley, as well as Columbia and Cornell. He was admitted to UCLA and Rutgers Honors College, with Rutgers offering him merit scholarships that would bring the out of pocket total cost to under $10K/year. We told him that we would support him financially at either place.
Seems some here would say without a second thought- go to UCLA! Not my son. We are on the East Coast. UCLA was not even on his list of schools until I suggested UCLA when we were visiting Cal Tech. He liked the campus and since he was applying to Berkeley, he figured why not. So why Rutgers? First, his parents are both proud Rutgers alums. Second, while it is not his money, he said that he did not think the additional money for UCLA (Over $225K for 4 years) would be money well spent. Third, and most important, he dug in and took a close look at the coursework and curriculum of both programs, and he concluded that Rutgers would be a better fit for him. Fourth, we have heard nothing but rave reviews from students who attended Rutgers Honors College.
I still feel toxic elitism bubbling to the surface in my mind and wanting him to go to the “best school” that accepted him, and that is certainly UCLA by any objective measure. But is it best for him? Only he can answer that question.
To the OP- take a close look at the number and variety of courses available. You also mentioned that you were interested perhaps doing work with a biotech startup down the road. Check out what Brown and UMass offer in terms of breadth and depth of courses in biotechnology and life sciences.
Finally, while the following ranking only takes into account publications in various CS disciplines, UMass is ranked ahead of Brown.
http://csrankings.org/#/fromyear/2015/toyear/2019/index?all
@Fire227 That’s an awesome set of choices. Can’t go wrong.
But since Rutgers is the place Bill Belechick looks to for his “go to” school smart players to run the defense. I’d pick The University of New Jersey myself. Lol.
And for anyone who is following sports. The University of Massachusetts at Amherst has come out of nowhere to make it to the national championship game in men’s ice hockey. Just defeating a great University of Denver powerhouse in overtime.
They’ve always had star engineers but now a little bit of sports too! They say 3000 students are heading to the Frozen Four for Saturday’s Game. And the entire Mullins center was sold out tonight to watch the game tonight on the Jumbotron!
Ok, I’ll play. My favorite Elitism joke:
“So what if I don’t know what Armageddon means - It’s not the end of the world!”