IB is getting us off track. This student has multiple interests and wants to be a researcher (academia? industry?)
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You also went to an Ivy in an era when there was much less inequality and social stratification. Not as true these days.
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I dunno ā¦ I disagree stratification was always there ā¦ you just find the group of friends you are comfortable with and be happy.
Well, the kid has many interests. For some areas (including banking and consulting), the extra debt makes sense assuming he is up to it. For others, itās harder to justify.
To me, the choice is between Yale and Pitt. The house system at Yale is special. Definitely try to visit everywhere. Not everyone at Penn or Columbia are so happy (that Penn is so pre-professional in the first case, the stress culture at Columbia, and social stratification at both).
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The extras are more than āluxuriousā travel and fees for greek life. There are fees for club sports, rec center exercise classes that donāt meet during odd hours of the day, Feb Club (scheduled daily events for the senior class), the senior class sweater, $60 for a round trip train ticket to a classmateās home in NYC, and the list goes on. Of course, students can opt out and stick to the free events but there is a social cost.
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This would be more the case in NYC (or any big city) where there are more opportunities to spend money.
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Plenty of opportunities to spend money at all colleges. They all have Starbucks and the ability to order online. When I was in school a lot of my friends traveled for spring break to Mexico or Florida or California but I couldnāt afford it so I stayed, worked, and treated myself to a day or two of skiing.
If you donāt have the money, you canāt spend the money and there are still plenty of things to do.
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Yes, my son had a job starting first term. I donāt know about Yale, but he was paid for being officer/ member in committees. Also, he earned well over $10000 after sophomore year, as intern each summer. In sum, I donāt see $20,000 a year as insurmountable. It could be no more than $5,000
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The people I knew who made it to Wall Street were Finance majors in the business school and were dedicated to career development from day one. They were usually involved in activities such as the SRI portfolio, which has a very competitive application process. Combined with good grades and a strong sophomore year internship, they could score a few interviews with top banks. It is much harder from Arts & Sciences, which I believe OPās son was admitted to. I know one guy who got an internship, but he did not like it and did something else after graduation. All of these kids were 3.9+ GPA kids with top leadership positions and strong sophomore internshipsāsuccess like that canāt be guaranteed in college.
In contrast, the top banks will come to Yaleās campus and wine and dine students in the fall of their sophomore year for an internship after their Junior year. Itās not the same. One can succeed from Pitt. I think itās the best non-elite school in the country. But itās also a place where you really have to buckle down and excel for ~3 years before you get a crack at the opportunities available at Yale.
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The kids at Ivies getting IB internships are doing the exact same thing. Otherwise they get shut out or have to settle for lesser opportunities. Those who havenāt attended are under false impressions that at the Ivies the competition isnāt fierce. It is very tough. Thereās competition for the top clubs and leadership positions just like at publics. They are networking from day 1. They have to maintain a high GPA. They are studying technicals in preparation for interviews and building up their resumes. It is not easy. Banks are not handing them anything. There are far fewer spots than those who want them. Nothing is guaranteed. Those who think differently clearly didnāt attend an Ivy.
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Congratulations to your son. I know many high stat kids that didnāt get into Ivies this year. You should be proud. My older son went to an expensive private college on a small scholarship. The deal was he would be responsible for $20,000 of his education if he chose this school. So he went with the federal loans and the interest accumulation is ridiculous. I can honestly say I feel guilty about this loan. I will be helping him pay off the balance before it really gets out of control. Just understand how much this debt will really cost you. Best of luck.
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Yes and no. It certainly is not a cake walk to get into a top IB or MC program from an Ivy. For my Sās school, Yale, the general rule of thumb is you needed a 3.7+ GPA to clear the initial hurdle to land an internship with a top tier IB or MC. It is competitive within the school to get into the IB or MC clubs, but IMO they are over rated ā itās a bunch of kids picking other kids and the IBs and MCs know that. There are probably many more kids who fail to land a position than those that succeed, at least at the top tier firms. On the other hand, these firms do proactively recruit very early on. Further there is a large network of upperclassmen who can guide underclassmen on the process and what to expect at the various evaluative stages. S had the benefit of this when he got an MC consultancy internship summer of sophomore and his IB internship summer of junior. He has been playing it forward for his more junior school mates. When we look at outcomes, his internship class was predominately T20, with a sprinkling of kids from good business school programs. So not impossible from a Pitt type school, but the funnel starts out much narrower and probably requires a finance type major vs a traditional liberal arts major.
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You hit the nail on the head, and itās not just IB. Nothing is handed to you and there is often a lot of competition. I have seen this with my kidās friends. I am not suggesting that people should avoid Ivy League schools- they are truly among the best. You just have to have a grasp of the pros and cons, and a good understanding of your personality and how you would manage it all.
An Ivy caliber student who is at Pitt might just have an easier time getting internships, research and publishing opportunities, etc. Again, it depends- and, there may be some other things you are giving up.
I wish this student much luck as he embarks on a very exciting time in his life!
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Of course, spot on. I recruited at two IBs and one was a bulge bracket. It was substantially Ivies, Williams, NYU, Amherst, UVA, UNC, Duke at the bulge. Wharton had its own recruiter. The non-bulge went to Kelley and Ross as well and was open to other friends of employees. They expand further when Wall Street is booming and contract (in many ways) when things are lean. I had art history and euro history undergrad majors (Ivy) on my deal teams. You had good training from upperclassmen and a career center geared towards these positions.
Same with top consulting. Fellow students and career center staff guide you to the best interview resources. You must know how to break down a case and articulate results.
I went to a regional, large public university. You could supposedly get an interview with a 3.7+ GPA through a job posting. In reality, itās like throwing out a line in case thereās a diamond in the rough. Like a T20 school fishing for the kid at a rural or inner-city HS who just happens to be the best in a generation.
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I completely agree for IB. However, if heās interested in medical research hereās something to think about. Pitt is always in the top 10 and they get funding from other sources too. Granted, Pitt is larger but itās not huge. About 19,000 undergrads total but spread out for many majors.
Top Recipients of NIH Funding, 2019
Johns Hopkins University: $763,565,791.
UC San Francisco: $684,499,764.
University of Michigan: $591,487,816.
University of Pennsylvania: $582,337,151.
Duke University: $571,409,121.
University of Pittsburgh: $546,388,511.
University of Washington: $526,962,825.
2020
10 Yale University $512,611,430 through 1,010 awards
9 University of Washington $505,071,973 through 952 awards
8 University of Pittsburgh at Pittsburgh $507,399,383 through 1,076 awards
7 Massachusetts General Hospital $511,815,008 through 944 awards
6 University of Pennsylvania $553,442,380 through 1,175 awards
5 University of Michigan at Ann Arbor $579,203,245 through 1,238 awards
4 Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center $598,904,570 through 274 awards
3 University of California, Los Angeles $629,215,516 through 835 awards
2 University of California, San Francisco $636,062,320 through 1,306 awards
1 Johns Hopkins University $722,890,586 through 1,339 awards
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Thank you for your insight! For clarification, IB stands for investment banking and MC stands forā¦?
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Management Consulting - Bain, Boston Group, McKinseyā¦
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I think this is a really nice sentiment, but it doesnāt really align with my experience.
At Pitt, there are more research opportunities per student than at many of its admissions peers. This is because, as noted by @chmcnm, Pitt receives tons of NIH funding. There is also high research activity in other disciplines as well. From my experience, I knew B/C students who worked in great labs. The opportunities there are plentiful.
An Ivy-caliber student at Pitt will not have an easier time getting internships, for two reasons. First, the āpondā at Pitt is deeper than you think. While I was successful, I can think of 50+ students who made my resume look like a joke. Pittās 75th percentile SAT is 1440. With average class sizes of ~4000, there are 1000 kids with strong SAT scores. Second, @tristatecoog and @BKSquared are rightāIBs and MC firms donāt do real on-campus recruiting at Pitt, and there is not the infrastructure on campus to compete with Ivy applicants. There is no secret pool of internships at Google, McKinsey, or Goldman set aside for Pitt students. Your student cannot perform āinternship arbitrageā to get a better internship at a lower ranked school vs an Ivy.
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My son has a top engineering internship this Summer. Lots of GA Tech kids but heās Bama, another is Houston. He is rooming with two Ga Tech kids. Major automotive OEM. To your point, if someone hustles, anything is possible. You may need to work harder - I once read about a kid who, across the highway from major companies, made a sign that said hire me of thousands of post it notes - and had his phone # too - must have taken him hours - and he got an internship. Where thereās a willā¦
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Does anyone really want this for a life? Be careful what you wish for
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