I’ve followed this thread with interest, but kept silent cuz everyone was focusing on the $$.
Years ago, with my son, When considering the free college vs. those that cost, size of the school was a huge factor. Housing made a big difference. When presented with options, my son liked being in a House all 4 years. He liked not having to declare a major until second year, as the Core exposed him to different fields. He liked part of first year being P/F. It was the student body that hooked him, just prior to making decision.
Eventually, he did go to grad school. As others have mentioned, that was free. He took on extra TA jobs, which greatly increased his $ for living expenses. Great salary as an intern and then first year at a job.
Your son is an outstanding student. What does he like about these colleges? Has he visited? I find it hard to imagine that he doesn’t have preferences. I’d go with “fit” over $, as it is 4 years of his life, and the experience will stay with him forever.
If it was my kid, I would encourage her (or him . . . but more likely her in the case of my kids) to find the answer to two questions:
How often the average medical researcher changes jobs in their career. The more they move the more options they will want and the extra initial outlay for Penn/Columbia/Yale is more likely to translate into more options.
Where does she think she would be happier (and learn more) for the next four years. Looking far into the future is hard . . . but the next four years is a little easier. Good schools don’t necessarily translate into better educations for specific individuals.
It is certainly a question worth asking, as the answer is not obvious to me for the intended major (for certain majors it would be obvious to pay the extra and for some majors it would be obvious to take the less costly route).
All of that said, my guess is that for the average eighteen year old who is faced with this choice the Penn/Columbia/Yale route will avarega better long term outcomes.
I agree with this. The $10k+ summer internships are mostly in high tech and finance. Biology majors aren’t their targets, regardless of the school. The $15k+ summer internships are from the likes of hedge funds. Yale is one of few schools they do recruit, but even if an applicant lands an initial interview, s/he still has to go through a series of IQ-like tests/interviews. The odds of success are very low because there’re very few available spots. Since OP’s son is a biology major interested in research, he’s more likely to be doing summer research on campus, which pays much less. Yale’s STARS summer reseach fellowships, for example, pay a stipend of $2.5k (after R&B).
As @PurpleTitan noticed, I came up with 4x20k=60k.
Probably best to take all financial advise from me with a huge grain of salt, LOL. 20k worth of salt!
So, the gap after federal loans will be 33k over 4 years.
Can internships make an appreciable dent? It probably depends on the kid. Is he a go getter, someone who appreciates that every bit he can contribute counts?
For the rest, how big the risk is for the parents, again depends on the kid. Can you trust him to understand that not taking the dream job but the better paid jobs, sharing an apartment or having to move back in with the ‘rents for a couple years may be the price to pay for Penn or Yale?
To me a low tier college would be one where most students are in the 1000 range on the SAT and probably < 2 or 3%, if that, are above 1500.
I’ve seen students be successful from those schools, but the journey is not the same.
For a specific comparison, one of my sons went to a Top 30 National U that we paid < 20K per year for. His peer went to a Top 30 Regional U for free. They both have become doctors, but the things my guy was able to do along the way (research opportunities, etc) were nowhere near comparable. My guy’s peer wishes he had chosen differently. He could do research, but only what his school had available vs oodles of options.
That’s just one example. Most academic-loving kids (vs those who merely “can” get good grades) love being with their peers and having tons of opportunities at their fingertips. It doesn’t take an Ivy to find a good number of peers and schools with oodles of options, but those aren’t around at every college out there.
A quick google search shows me that Pitt has > 25% of their students with an SAT Math above 740 and SAT Verbal above 700. They have 19,000 students. That’s almost 5000 academic peers for a top student.
Compare it to Shippensburg (one of our state schools many kids from our school go to) and their top 25% level is at 570 for both M&V. Only 2% have > 700 in math and 1% in Verbal. There can be a few grads from Ship who go on to do really high level academic stuff, but even if so, the journey to get there isn’t the same as rolling out of their bunk and walking to opportunities.
There’s a huge difference between those two (and similar stat schools). Not nearly so much between Pitt and schools higher than it, like Ivies.
One thing you need to add to the Ivy schools is opportunity cost. Pitt is free. Would you still give him the $ you said you would’ve paid to the Ivy schools? Put it towards grad school?
Ask me how I know. Both my sons asked this question.
I understand your dilemma. S20 had some very nice, low cost options. When he got into Georgia Tech I basically said you’re going. He didn’t argue. It’s a little over budget but doable. He could graduate early because of AP classes. There’s also co-op and study abroad to cut costs.
S21 has a similar dilemma. It should be interesting.
Harvard is amazing (truly, it is- I am not arguing that point), but I know students at very strong state schools who also got internships with senators, governors, major news organizations working for very high profile journalists, world renown research institutions, etc.
My point is not to take away from Harvard. My point is to show that students who are of such high caliber will excel at other schools.
I have more to say regarding cost because I don’t have a clear answer (and it’s really none of my business). Can this family afford the $60,000 or $80,000 loans? If they can, then go wherever you want!
Can these parents afford to pay back $700 a month +/- for an extended period of time, without taking money away from funding their retirement? Are there other children, and can they also do the same for them?
If the student plans to pay back these loans and work as a medical researcher (assistant) before grad school, will he be happy making a low salary and paying back these loans? This decision can dictate where he might live, or whether or not he can afford to take a certain job. We don’t know this student well enough.
My daughter’s current roommate went to Harvard, and she is 4-5 years older than my daughter. They are both living in the same apartment and are both working from home. They were both science majors and get into heavy discussions all the time about a variety of topics.
Learning, socializing, growth, etc does not stop after college. It really just begins.
Don’t know about Penn and Columbia, but Yale is 100% grant, so we are talking $60k debt assuming OP can only pay $5k a year in cash as mentioned upthread. Of the $60k debt, $27k is Stafford, leaving $33k to be covered by debt or student earnings (depends on how student share calculated in award to get to $20k EFC). Op has also said that all schools selected were affordable, it’s just there are now some no cost/super low cost options. One other thing to consider, is if the merit awards are guaranteed for all 4 years or is there some GPA minimum or a reapplication process. The Ivies are pure FA which will only vary if family economic circumstances change in either direction.
For me, if my kid got into Yale and it would only cost all in $20k a year, I would have thought my kid found a pot of gold.
Some people might be able to come up with an extra $20,000 a year by making a lot of sacrifices and taking on extra work. We have to remember that for others, their whole life has been a sacrifice, they already work 60 hours a week, and coming up with that kind of money is next to impossible.
We don’t have enough information to decide if the loans are affordable (and as I mentioned, it’s none of my business).
This is a good point. $60k in debt is nothing to sneeze at. It’s probably a nice car payment for 10-20 years.
In the dot.com era I worked for a CMU startup. A small IT infrastructure team. All similar ages and salaries. One coworker went to CMU and was $100k in debt. I had a new car and bought a house. He drove a beater and had roommates. He could still be paying the debt off. He knew he might not have chosen wisely. Debt is real.
We’re not talking 60k in debt though, and that’s very different from 100k in debt 20 years ago.
Not to detract from the fact debt is real but it’s different from the situation here.
I think this family has to sit down and figure out if there is enough money left over at the end of the month to help pay back a loan. If there are other children who will attend college one day, is there money for them as well? What if they get into an Ivy, or a school such as Vanderbilt? Will they take out additional loans and pay them back? Or maybe…will they overlap in school and possibly lower their EFC?
We don’t know enough about this student to determine how he wants to live. Does he enjoy going out with friends for dinner? Does he plan to move out?
Personally, if I had a pot of money for college…I would spend it on college. I am not the type to tell my kids if they attend the cheaper school I will buy them a car.
I wouldn’t either as a car depreciates, but some of the 6 figure amounts I’ve seen thrown around (so not on this thread), if you invest for 4 decades, gets you from partially to all the way there for retirement, depending on market conditions.
Just want to add that schools like Yale do not have loans in their financial aid package. So the schools’ financial aid offices assessed what the family could pay without loans.
If income is not in the $200k range, that means assets threw things off. And Yale doesn’t count home equity for a primary home.
Yale does seem to count your home equity in the calculation for FA, according to their website when I was researching for my son.
OP, I would let your son decide which schools he wants based on other factors, not money. It seems you were prepared to pay at least this much if he didn’t get the full rides.
