JBHE Gives Reson for Affirmative Action in 2005

Applying to College
41

<p>Some of the biggest discussions about URMs and AA comes into to play at only a handful of school. Discussions of this levels never happens and a blind eye is turned when we talk about legacies, athlethes developmental admits, etc. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I guess the difference it makes is that non-URM students who have similar scores and who can clearly "do the work" may not even be considered in the applicant pool because their scores are "too low." We all talk on these boards about having the "stats" to even get a ticket to the lottery. Non-URMs with similar test scores can't even get a ticket.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Everyone has a ticket by the virtue of tossing their hat in the ring. If you submit an application, then you have purcased a ticket to the "lottery" the same as if you toss in your dollar you are buying a chance at having the dream. </p>

<p>I think that one of the problems is the people think that admissions to elite schools are or should be soley based on merit and tend to forget that admissions to these schools have ** never ** been based soley on merit. </p>

<p>Most of theses schools have a history of admitting people based, on money, power, prestige, family, athletic prowless, religious affilitiation, and the color of one's skin. If anything merit (or the lack thereof) was used as the fall back reason to keep someone out. </p>

<p>Hundreds of years later, what has substantially changed?</p>

<p>If a student has been admitted any where where with less than perfect scores, perfect GPAs, perfect ap scores, their admittance hasn't been based totally on merit either also because "they too have taken a spot" from some disgruntled student with perfect scores, GPAs and ap score who will be rejected, deferred or waitlisted in the process.</p>

42

<p>I think non-URM's do have a point that they are victims of reverse discrimination, but that is just too bad in a sense. The need of society to maintain some racial balance at the flagship universities outweighs the relatively small price that they have to pay. This is not a new concept. It happens everytime somebody's house is condemned by the state just so that a highway can be built over top of it. You trekkers can be reminded of "The Search for Spock". You know who you are. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."</p>

<p>I don't think it helps to bring up how the ivies used to be havens for the rich in the 1920's or 1930's. You may as well bring up slavery. And none of my ancestors had slaves in the US. I personally believe that I am a direct line male descendant of Genghis Khan and he had slaves, but that was a long time ago. I digress. The point is that the non-URM's are disadvantaged and they have a right to complain about it. Life isn't fair.</p>

43

<p>
[quote]
I don't think it helps to bring up how the ivies used to be havens for the rich in the 1920's or 1930's. You may as well bring up slavery.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Dufus,</p>

<p>Are you trying to say that a rich white well connected legacy is not an advantage in the admissions process? So tell me what has really changed as this person is still likely to be admitted over the regular folk (they're just categorized under the politically correct names of developmental admits and legacies) Because if you look up a few common data sets , you notice that no matter how many tens of thousands of students apply the number of full payers, legacy students and non-urm still remain about the same and with non asian urms still making up close to 60% of the admitted class. At the end of the day no on is "taking any one spot" because white kids are being knocked out of the box by other white kids, asians are knocking other asians out the blacks are knocking other black out the box, etc, etc, etc</p>

44

<p>Very few white applicants are rich, well-connected legacies. How about the average middle class white applicant? He has absolutely "nothing" to offer in terms of diversity stats or potential contributions. All he can do is his best, which has to be better than applicants with some desirable hook, and even then maybe that isn't enough.</p>

45

<p>sybbie: Maybe it is just the way that Americans generally think. Americans believe in the "cowboy mythology", and Capitalism, and Horatio Alger, and working hard to get ahead. I don't think people object to the idea that if you donate $50 million to a college, then you can get your son into it. On the other hand, the idea of getting an advantage because of your skin color doesn't seem fair. I don't suggest that this is universal, and it is probably less true for minorities. I know the arguments that you can make. Perhaps that is why there is value in having a diverse student body in colleges so that they can talk about this stuff.</p>

46

<p>lkf725, if it were all about hooks, would you believe that over 50% of almost all elite school are white? Some of you guys act as if African American, through AA, have taken over the school and are now the majority, when all the differene it makes is 5-10% of the class. If you can't get into the other 90% of the class, I wouldn't blame it on AA, I'd say you didn't beat your own competition, the other white applicants.</p>

47

<p>"Everyone has a ticket by the virtue of tossing their hat in the ring. If you submit an application, then you have purcased a ticket to the "lottery" the same as if you toss in your dollar you are buying a chance at having the dream."</p>

<p>Oh, please, Sybbie. I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid. A non-hooked kid with a combined SAT 1200 may have a ticket to WATCH the lottery at these elite schools, but certainly doesn't stand a snowball's chance. A URM with a combined SAT 1200 will at least get their application read. Is this right or wrong? I don't know. But it is what it is, and a non-hooked kid doesn't see it as fair.</p>

48

<p>
[quote]
A non-hooked kid with a combined SAT 1200 may have a ticket to WATCH the lottery at these elite schools, but certainly doesn't stand a snowball's chance. A URM with a combined SAT 1200 will at least get their application read. Is this right or wrong? I don't know. But it is what it is, and a non-hooked kid doesn't see it as fair.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Maybe I am being naieve, because nnless the schools ar blatently lying I was under the impression that *** all applications*** were read at least twice before either being determined an auto admit, auto rejection or going to committee.</p>

49

<p>All I'm saying is that white middle class America is not represented in elite schools (or maybe in any schools) in proportion to their prevalence in society. According to the 2003 government census statistics, people identified as "single race white" made up 80.5% of the population. Black or African American = 12.8%, Native American or Alaskan = 1%, Asian = 4.1% and Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander = 0.4%. So saying that 50% of students in a school are white is not exactly proportional. There probably 80% of the applicants vying for 50% of the slots. Not great odds for some one without a hook.
<a href="http://www.census.gov/population/pop-profile/dynamic/RACEHO.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.census.gov/population/pop-profile/dynamic/RACEHO.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>PS - I mean no disrespect to any individuals, but statistically it is not an advantage to be a middle class white kid.</p>

50

<p>I think quiltguru was just saying the a low scoring, unhooked, non-URM basically doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. I'm sure there is a counter example to that because I've seen one, but I basically agree with the sentiment.</p>

<p>Logic isn't going to dominate a conversation on this. A URM with a 1300 is not going to take a slot away from a unhooked applicant with a 1300. The slot is being taken away from a unhooked applicant with a 1550. </p>

<p>The problem is that non-URM's see people from their own high schools get into elite colleges with SAT scores that would otherwise be auto-denies except for skin color. I don't think you can blame them for having some resentment. I personally think that the resentment level is relatively low. Perhaps they do realize that what is best for society is not necessarily in their own self interest. The people arguing for AA could be as understanding. The AA system is reverse discrimination and racism. No discussion of why we need AA is going to alter what it is.</p>

51

<p>lkf725:<br>
When special interest minority groups see the percent of say black students in the college, they compare that number to the percent of blacks in the population. There are three problems with this:</p>

<p>One: They are not taking into account that the stated percentage is not the percent of American students. They ignore the slice of the pie taken up by international students and the percent of students not declaring their race.</p>

<p>Two: There are colleges that are predominately black. (I don't just mean only the historically black colleges.) While it is okay for some colleges to be dominately black, it is absolutely wrong for any college to be "overly" white.</p>

<p>Three: Many hispanics identify themselves as white, especially when immigrating to this country. In the US, you are non-white if you have any non-white ancestors. In a lot of countries, you are white if you have any white ancestors. I would think that they would mark the hispanic box when applying to college, but I don't see that in the high schools.</p>

52

<p>Lfk725,</p>

<p>you have a point because when it comes to applying to many of these schools there are an overwhelming number of non-urms in the applicant pool all qualified and able to do the work if given the chance, but nowhere near enough seats in the freshman class. Although 12% of the us population identifies it self as african american, an extremely small number of sudents are applying to elite schools. </p>

<p>From the JHBE article</p>

<p>The Progress of Black Student Enrollments at the Nation's Highest-Ranked Colleges and Universities </p>

<p>(I can't post the link but if you are a subscriber, you can access the information)</p>

<p>Fall 2005 (class of 2009)</p>

<p>Stanford 252 blacks admitted 156 enrolled black yeild 61.9 % 9.5 % of the freshman class </p>

<p>Duke 1867 black applicants, 163 blacks enrolled 9.5 % of the admitted class</p>

<p>Princeton 116 blacks enrolled 9.4 % of the freshman class</p>

<p>harvard 221 admitted, 153 enrolled black yeild 69.2 9.3% of the freshman class</p>

<p>Yale 1134 black applicants 122 enrolled 9.2% of the admitted class</p>

<p>columbia 1390 black applicants 114 enrolled 8.5% of the admitted class</p>

<p>Gerogrtown 1092 applied 300 admitted acceptance rate 30.2% 121 enrolled, yeild 36.7% 7.9% of the freshman class</p>

<p>Dartmouth 82 enrolled 7.9% of the freshman class</p>

<p>Penn 1229 applicants, 367 admitted 29.9 acceptance rate 193 enrolled 52.6 black yeild 7.6% of the freshman class</p>

<p>Brown 1089 applied 253 admitted 23.2 black acceptance rate 97 enrolled 38.3 yeild 6.6% of the freshman class</p>

<p>JHU 943 applied 343 admitted 36.5 admit rate 75 enrolled 21.8% black yeild 6.3% of the freshman class</p>

<p>Cornell 1126 applied 410 admitted 36.4 admit rate 175 enrolled 42.7 yeild rate 5.6% of the admitted class</p>

<p>MIT 365 applied 115 admitted 31.5 admit rate 55 enrolled 47.8& yeild 5.5% of freshman class</p>

<p>WashU 1884 applied 253 admitted 13.4% acceptance rate 76 enrolled 30% yeild 5.4 % of freshman class </p>

<p>U of Chicago 424 applied 53 enrolled 4.4 % of freshman class </p>

<p>UC Berkley 1572 applied 272 admitted 18.6 % admit rate 129 enrolled 44.2 yeild 3.1% of freshman class </p>

<p>Cal tech 40 applied 1 enrolled .04% of the freshman class</p>

<p><a href="http://www.jbhe.com/pdf/2005freshmensurvey.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/pdf/2005freshmensurvey.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So from a percentage perspective, African Americans are a higher chance of being admitted, but the their numbers are not increasing. </p>

<p>I have watched over the past 3 admissions cycles here on CC (and I know it is not representative of the entire pool of candides) that there are many african american students that are bringing scores to the table that are comprable to their counter parts. </p>

<p>There is a poster hotpiece (sorry for singling you out) that had a 35 on her ACT, 710 and 740 on SAT IIs applying as a math major, yet she was still deferred this year at Harvard. NSM stated that her own son had 1510 on the SATs and did not get into columbia ED (she also said he did not exactly present the best GPA either). </p>

<p>But had they posted on the chances, an overwhelming number of people would have told them that they were shoo -ins.</p>

<p>Another thing people fail to notice that an over whelming majority of African Americans in elite colleges are the children of recent AA american immigrants from the carribean and Africa. So even the number of african americans who are not the children of recent immigrants but whose families have been in the U.S. multiple generations is smaller still.</p>

<p>From the Harvard Magazine article Roots and Race:
In June, a New York Times article raised a long-simmering issue: the origins and ancestry of Harvard's black students. The piece described the celebratory mood at a reunion of African-American Harvard alumni, who applauded Harvard's progress over the past three decades in enrolling larger numbers of black students. But it also noted that this mood was broken when "some speakers brought up the thorny issue of exactly who those black students are." The question arises because, even though in recent years 7 to 9 percent of Harvard's incoming freshmen (8.9 percent for the class of 2008) have been African Americans, some studies suggest that more than half of these students, and perhaps as many as two-thirds, are West Indian or African immigrants or their children. A substantial number also identify themselves as children of biracial couples.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090443.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090443.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>while I may not have a dog in this fight as my regular folk NYC public school kid was not one of those 1200 SAT scoring kids that everyone swears will get into an Ivy (but closer to the 75th percentile range) it is disheartening that everyone seems to sing the same old song and paint every one using such broad strokes.</p>

53

<p>MIT is a good example of a school with AA that has resulted in a non-white majority even excluding international students.</p>

<p>This year they admitted 27% URMs EA. URM at MIT is African American, Native American and Hispanic, whether it is 100% ethnicity or not I don't know. There was a goal to improve on the URMs this year to make up for a drop last year to 14%. There are normally 20%URMs at MIT.</p>

<p>Internationals are on a quota and compete against each other. There are 28% Asians, 38% White and 7% international. The rest is "unknown". If you apply the unknown to whites you still get less than 50%.</p>

<p>I read somewhere that last year SAT takers were 10% African American, 10% Hispanic, 1% Native American, 9% Asian and 70% White/Not reported.</p>

<p>They say there is no gender bias but the admit rate for males is about 12% or 898 slots ( of 7,669 apps) and for females 23% or 767 slots (of 2,797 apps). Men matriculate more than women. MIT has 57% Men and 43% Women undergraduates. For the classs of 2009 and 2010 they are looking for a 53 to 47 ratio.</p>

<p>There is no ethnic breakdown of applicants although I believe there are around 2,000 international apps for just over 100 slots.</p>

<p>At the rate they are going it won't be long before the average middle class white male is an under represented minority at MIT. </p>

<p>Assuming for the class of 2010 the same enrollment as the class of 2008 there were 1087 students. Approximately 48% white (including not reported) or 435 white students. 53% males or 230 white males. URMs (assume 20% makeup although 27% given EA status) 218.</p>

54

<p>Learner, are you seriously going blame Afirmative Action for 28% Asian population? 10% black has been a hovering figure, URM Programs like MITE only account for 40 students at most. So wow, your chances were really decreased. The Asian population is what's growing. Statistically, they average better than whites in SATs and GPA. Really, all I can say is work harder, because they are coming up fast and taking over.</p>

<p>lkf725, then what's is not proportionate is not and issue of black or white, because in elite schools, blacks make up 0.7% of all students. So if for the arguement that white middle class are under represented, that is not an issue of AA, if there is searching for someone to blame, then generalize that the Asians need to stop being so smart.</p>

<p>The fact that I, as an African American male in my community have 7 times the chance of going to jail than finishing college is not great odds for me either, because too large a portion of blacks that do attend coollege do not complete, which is why we are so focused on not only how many are in school, but what percentage of blacks actually graduate. At UMass Amherst, for instance, it was reported in 2003 that 65% of blacks did not graduate, transfer (I doubt that many) or dropout, that's not good.</p>

55

<p>It's really funny how people make a big deal out of the few URM's at colleges while asians usually make up about 20-30% of the elite college population yet they're only 4 % of the population.</p>

<p>If people don't like colleges that try to increase diversity, then why don't you make your own college and let it be as homogeneous as you want.</p>

56

<p>hey Diversity is always a good thing as I would know (I went to a county high school which is way different than my middle school which was in the inner city, different people to interact with(ironically enough more white people))
A diverse campus means you should be more prepared for people you may and may not perfer, it also gives you da chance to look at more things from a different perspective.
BTW Im a URM(African American) and I got a 1300(700m, 600cr; 590w) on the SAT and Its actually kind of funny that Ive gotten one of the highest score in my school (if not highest) which is almost all white, its probably becuz I goto a vocational school (I go for Computer Programming)
I dont believe I ever really considered myself especially at a disadvantage, My school is just underfunded, has a terribel scheduling system, terrible electives(only lang. is spanish), and not even good core classes(calc. is the highest you can go and theres 10 people in there with me)
Funny thing is I kinda meet the usual steriotype profile-Father in jail and in single parent home which is low-middle income. I just have a smart father, Made the mistake of destroying his chance at a good school. heck I even play basketball (I know its steriotypical but I find it funny of how true steriotypes can be :P)
I guess I have an intrinsic motivation to learn all I can and do something important.
Two other important factors
A. In middle school I was in the gifted program which I got into Geometry during 8th grade(In our school system thats great) and good classes overall
B.Truthfully I was not that prepared for college admissions until I cam to these forums(since I goto a school with a low college attendance rate and even then a school like PSU-UP (accepted) is phenominal</p>

<p>So I guess AA has its cons and Pros. we just have to understand that there will never be a perfect <em>anything</em> Something will always be flawed, most of the time we just cant see the flaw because we agree with the new plan so much :)</p>

<p>Chris</p>

57

<p>
[QUOTE]
Two: There are colleges that are predominately black. (I don't just mean only the historically black colleges.) While it is okay for some colleges to be dominately black, it is absolutely wrong for any college to be "overly" white.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Really this has turned into an arguement that the Ivies and the schools you are interested in are not 80+% white, but neither are the schools I'm interested 10+% black like the population either, deal with it, I'm in the same position as you buddy.</p>

<p>Dufus, do you know how many schools are predominantly white, over 800!
Here are just a few predominantly white schools: </p>

<p>Lafayette is 80%
SMU is 80%
Ohio State is 82%
Denison is 82%
TCU is 82%
Purdue is 83%
Lehigh is 84%
University of Delaware is 84%
PennState is 84%
Ithaca is 85%
Union College is 82%
Wake Forest is 85%
Marquette is 86%
Calvin College is 86%
Furman is 86%
Bulter is 87%
Baldwin-Wallace College is 87%
Loyola College in Maryland is 87%
Valparaiso is 87%
Eastern Illinois University is 88%
Belmont University is 90%
Union University is 91%
Flager College is 92%
Gettysburg College is 92%
Hope College is 92%
Sacred Heart is 92%
Samford University is 93%
Muhlenberg College is 94%
Grove City 95%</p>

<p>I only listed reputable names just to show how many excellent school where whites, by your statistics, are over-represented. And of all of them, I've only heard of Grove City being criticized about being "overly-white/overly-purist." </p>

<p>Sure, there are plenty of small colleges that are 100% white, especially down South & Northwest, but most of the schools above are well-recognized. Whereas, of the 82 accredited HBCUs.</p>

<p>How many can you actually name?</p>

<p>Morehouse & Howard (anyone can get that)
Spelman (okay, 3)
Xavier, Clark Atlanta, Dillard, Hampton, or Fisk (Can you name any of those???)</p>

<p>If you named atleast five, nice work, more than the average person knows.
If you can name 10 HBCUs off the top of your head then all give you a biscuit? Seriously, how many people actually care about the HBCU enough to even know more than the first 3? And if you know more than Morehouse, Howard, & Spelman, then how many do you actually consider respected institutions?</p>

<p>The black community I know doesn't care or recognize the rest of the HBCUs beyond those 8, and really, only the first 3 are generally considered good schools by the black community outside of the South.</p>

<p>And really, the reputable HBCUs aren't 100% black:</p>

<p>Howard is 85%
Clark Atlanta is 86%
Xavier is 87%
Spelman is 92%
Fisk is 95%
Morehouse is 95%
Hampton is 96%
Dillard is 99%</p>

<p>And really, the reason why people don't care much that their are 82 colleges that are over 75% black, is because very few even care or knew they existed in the first place. If you want to apply and break the 100% blackness at Arkansas Baptist College or Alcorn Stata(MS), then fine, but I highly doubt you've hear and/or would ever want to go their.</p>

58

<p>I'm going to state that again:</p>

<p>Really this has turned into an arguement that the Ivies and the schools you are interested in are not 80+% white, but neither are the schools I'm interested 10+% black like the population either, deal with it, I'm in the same position as you guys.</p>

<p>And out of curiousity, why don't those who complain that middle class whites are indirectly disadvantaged try applying to the nearly 1,000 colleges that do not use AA, or are obviously using it sparingly?</p>

<p>I mean, of just the list above, you have to be interested in a few, probably only 2-3, the same way for blacks like me and HBCUs. If you just want Harvard, NYU, Stanford, Wellesley, etc. then I'd say those schools are extremely hard to get into to begin with, do as much as you can, but don't consider rejection as a faulter of the 5% black population, there is still another 95% to fill, and you just didn't get in.</p>

59

<p>fix the god damn educational system. don't give advantages to URMS based on "race", it's useless.</p>

60

<p>it's like giving smokers an advantage in the admissions process, what the hell does that have to do with anything?</p>

<p>however, if smokers, in general come from the lower class because they waste all their money on cigarettes and deal with more prejudice socially (for obvious reasons), then you help them quit smoking...not let them in college</p>