July 1st expectations - swimming

<p>Well done to your S @ahsmuoh‌. His holidays can now truly begin:)</p>

<p>It sounds like a very successful meet for him. Congratulations.</p>

<p>@ahsmuoh congratulations to your son! Hopefully the mono is fully behind him now (plus bonus, there’s almost no chance he’ll get it again).</p>

<p>The story at the end of your post touches upon something I’ve been wondering about. You are finding out in kind of a roundabout way that a particular school may not be interested in you son. How do you find this kind of thing out officially? Or, to put it another way, how do you know when a school has filled up their official visit slots and won’t be inviting anybody else? Is it that the kid keeps reaching out periodically until the coach finally says sorry? Or do they notify the recruits that they’ve been communicating with along the way? When typically do schools stop offering official visits?</p>

<p>@1HappyDad‌ Those are great questions. I think my son is getting close to just asking. He has been offered two official visits and has 3 other schools that he is communicating with. He wants to make sure where he stands before scheduling the visits. I would think the “studs” will have their visits scheduled very soon if not already so the coaches will know who to go to after that. Now that juniors is over. My guess is the next week or so will be telling. Would love to hear from those who might have experience or better insight. </p>

<p>Many of the college coaches attended last week junior nationals in California and will be staying for senior nationals this week. In addition NCSA nationals start this week and some of the college coaches will be going to watch. A surprising number of high school swimmers will be swimming at senior nationals this year and many of them will be tapered specifically for senior nationals. I would think that official visit offers will not be finalized until at least a week or two after senior nationals. </p>

<p>@Swimkidsdad‌ I agree about nationals but I don’t think my kid is competing with kids that have sr national cuts. Ha;). He barely has 2 jr. Nat cuts. But he does understand that this week is probably a wash with connecting with coaches. I forgot about the NCSA meet. When is that over?</p>

<p>In about 3 days.</p>

<p>So…my next statement is 100% my opinion only…but folks, its time to nail down those official visits. Over the next week if you do not have the offers you think you should, its time to ask the coaches about official visits. You may not like the answer you receive in some cases, but at least you know where you stand. And can plan accordingly. Prep your swimmer to say "I like XXXX school very much and am very interested in coming to town on an official visit this fall. Can we make this happen? Or…the more wimpy route (I have a girl, they sometimes are wimpy)…“Can you tell me where you stand on offering official visits to swimmers at this point?”</p>

<p>Here’s some possible answers from coaches, all we have heard:</p>

<p>1) We are finalizing our offiial visits this week, we’ll let you know details shortly. (And we heard, and D went.)
2) We have three weekends, our strong preference is that you attend the first (usually top recruits go to the first recruiting weekend) and here’s the date of the weekends.
3) At this time, we are going to be giving OV offers to only a few other athletes. (Nice way of saying you are not on the top of the list but if others fall through, then you’ll be next)
4) We no longer have money for any more OV, but if you’d like to visit anyway, we can arrange an overnight unofficial visit for you. (Less interested, but if you feel strongly about the school, you might have to swallow your pride and do this.)</p>

<p>What if you don’t receive the official visits you want?</p>

<p>1) First, get a few on the calendar that you are interested in–even if they are bottom first tier schools and upper second tier schools for your swimmer. (Perhaps you have not quite targeted appropriate schools based on swim times and academics? Shot a little too high in the rankings?)
2) If you love a school/swim team/academics/affordability–consider an unofficial visit in the fall. You then can apply ED to see if you get into the school without coach support. Not ideal perhaps. If you do this, you should have a frank discussion with the coach while there about walk on policies and practicies. Some teams treat walk ons identically to recruited athletes, others do not.
3) If the coaches are still calling from schools you are VERY interested in, and yet not offering official visits (this should be after August 18th or so), then you need to know where you stand. You have to ask. If the coach is honest, and says…“we have others we are pursuing first, but we are not confident that we will get all of them, and you are on our second list…” Then you have to decide if you want to wait it out. This is hard to do sometimes–especially as other schools are warmer/more interested in your athlete.</p>

<p>Things to remember over the next few weeks:</p>

<p>1) This is a super complicated and sophisticated game of chicken. Coaches want the best athlete, your S or D wants the best school possible. As those “upstream” from your S or D take action, it impacts your child. As your S or D makes decisions it impacts those athletes downstream. Waiting it out, not having all visits nailed down until early Fall is not a bad thing. (Just make sure you have a couple…) As other athletes move away from your preferred school, it might open up an opportunity for you.
2) If possible, and unless you have an OV to your favorite school, and the OV goes exactly perfectly–an unlikely scenario…then be just a little patient as this unfolds. Patience can truly be a virtue here.
3) If you are not getting the visits you want, its probably time to lay your cards on the table with those premier schools. Say “xxx school is my number one choice based on athletics and academics” and I really want to do an OV and make a decision.<br>
4) The emotional highs are high and the emotional lows are low for the next few weeks, try to moderate them for the sake of the student. Its a challenging time and things change quickly. Celebrate once the decision is made only.
5) Speaking of decisions…and I might get attacked here…but if your S or D does not actually find a good match in the Fall, you might consider waiting until Spring. Its risky, there’s significantly less money, there’s significantly less spots available, but if another high performance year might help your athlete be more recruitable, then perhaps its worth it. </p>

<p>@swim4school‌ Thanks for that great post. I wish my son knew I was on this page and talking to you all but I think he would think it was creepy. ;). Anyway - he did say today that he is prepared to make those calls. I hope he doesn’t take the wimpy way out but he may. He has 2 that he would really liked to be invited to that we all believe he is on the “if others don’t accept” list because he has been in contact with them (and they have called him too) but no invitation yet. </p>

<p>@swim4school Thank you! Great post. Actually I’ll be happy when trips are finalized. We have a situation very simillar to one that @ahsmuoh articulated earlier in that a pretty active alum at one of the school’s our son is interested in told me that the school probably isn’t going to offer our son an official visit. I’ve not shared this with our son for a couple of reasons. It’s not a direct communication from the coaches (they still respond to him positively and promptly, but no OV offer) and I think either way it will be a good experience for him to ask directly. And while I have no doubt the guy is active and connected with the team and school, he also sometimes comes across as not quite as connected as he thinks he is. Personally, I’m not heartbroken if it turns out to be true and our son is not invited. Like I say, it will be nice when the OV’s are finalized, so it’s good to hear we are probably getting close to the end of this phase.</p>

<p>Question to the group. Any thoughts about if you child puts a school on his/her list that he/she appears to really like but you just don’t think would be a good fit? It’s a great school, I’m just not convinced its the right school for him, but he thinks otherwise. He’s the one that has to sit in the classes for the next four years, but at the same time, it’s a heck of a lot of money…</p>

<p>@1HappyDad‌ Sounds like your question may be a bit out of the realm whether it is a match swimming-wise. Is it not a good fit academically, financially, or swim ability per your opinion? Can only speak from our personal experience but we told swim kid that there were some schools that were out of our financial reach and though kid could apply they had to find the funding elsewhere to cover all expenses - which in reality was not likely going to happen. Unless your kid is securing a very hefty academic and/or swim scholarship to attend said school, your feedback does matter in this process. Good Luck.</p>

<p>@1HappyDad;</p>

<p>First, let me say that I would not put any emphasis on what “outsiders,” no matter how well intentioned, provide to you in the recruiting process. If the coach is calling your S and they are having routine (weekly/every 10 days) conversations, there is still “interest” from the coach. Your S may be a second tier recruit for that team–but if the first tier of recruits start saying no in early September, your S may rapidly become a first tier recruit, and get an OV offer for a visit in October–even late October. Things change fast, very fast. Our D actually became a first tier recruit for a team on a Tuesday morning, and on Thursday night she was checking into the hotel to start an OV on Friday morning. By Sunday night at 9pm, after returning home that morning, she had an offer from the coach.</p>

<p>Your question on “fit” does give me pause. If the target school is not a “fit” from an academic or swim perspective, then your S will probably have to figure that out on an OV, or after the OV debrief with you. Going on a couple of visits will help him assess fit more easily and compare schools. However…if the “fit” issue is financial, then this comes down to a tough discussion with him. </p>

<p>Reality in swimming…there’s really very modest money unless you are in the Top 25 in your recruiting class. For men, there is less. If your S is an excellent student, the school MAY be able to stack academic aid with athletic; or there may be a financial aid package available. You need to fully understand your options before your S “falls in love” with a super expensive school. The coach needs to also understand if financial constraints exist. Financial aid pre-reads exist during the recruiting process; and academic aid commitments can also be made. </p>

<p>Whatever you do, remember there is a lot of “hidden costs” in having an athlete also. There is travel to/from the school dictated by the coach rather than at the cheapest times (for example, students can leave for Christmas on xx date no earlier than xx time and must be returning to campus on xx date at xx time.) There is parent travel to big meets, parent apparel, parent booster club fees, etc. </p>

<p>@1HappyDad‌ We are lucky that the schools that our son is talking to matches his academic and other interests. He really wants to be at a big school that has a good football team - he is a true football fan. So he has a few good choices - he is a pretty good student but not IvY type. Hope he gets some academic as well as some athletic money. Hopefully the two combined with make a dent. </p>

<p>Hi everyone, I have been away for a few weeks. I hope everyone is fine and that things are still going well.</p>

<p>Whilst I can’t add to the OV discussion, someone gave me this advice for D1 and 2 schools (paraphrased in my own words), and I am wondering if it might help anyone:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>If you are desperate to go to X, and you can pay the full fees, chase the coach down. If you are half decent academically and with your swimming, you will probably get into most schools outside of the main Ivies and Stanford etc.</p></li>
<li><p>If you need a lot scholarship money (little family income but rich in assets and therefore little or no FA even though available income will not support OOS or private school fees), then you might be wasting your time chasing because whilst you might garner more interest, it is most unlikely that significant money will follow that interest.</p></li>
<li><p>If you are somewhere in the middle, then it matters very little.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>In other words, the endgame should colour your moves now (I think this was the gist of what I was told).</p>

<p>Update about S: He was at an International meet in July and his coach told him it was a preparation meet for our Nationals - now I don’t profess to know much about swimming, but I would have thought that was getting the priorities the wrong way round. Anyway, S was reluctant to raise this with his coach, and he went into the meet completely unrested. His times were ok, but he was disappointed because you don’t want to represent your country and not do blazingly well. He came back and had 1 week’s taper before our Nationals. He did alright, but didn’t hit any of his PBs. Fortunately for him, his times were good enough for him to still medal even though he wasn’t swimming best times. It is usually a struggle to get him to go to bed, but he said he was so tired - he was napping in the afternoon! I felt bad for him and his coach because they both had expectations of what he would do, and had both worked very hard to bring it through, but it wasn’t to be, but it made sacrificing the International meet pointless - I suppose with hindsight. Even if it wasn’t the taper, he could have been unwell etc. and so putting all of one’s eggs in a single basket just didn’t resonate with me at the time.</p>

<p>Despite the disappointing times, S has been told that he would have a place on a few of the top swim squads in our universities, so that is encouraging. He has a few Skypes scheduled with US coaches this week and next week, and doesn’t want to make any decisions till they are over.</p>

<p>My new concern now is whether in any event, this ‘US dream’ is the right thing for him. Most of our swimmers who attend university in the US don’t seem to do that well. I have been tracking quite a few of them, and only a few have improved year on year. All the ones I tracked attended big name swim programmes.</p>

<p>S’s dream, whether realistic or not, is not just to become the No 1 in Britain in his events, but to be competitive in the World generally. Some of our best transplants have done best as Freshmen and then tailed off. I am therefore wondering if mainly yards training doesn’t strengthen a hitherto meters foundation. There are other practical concerns too, even though all the US coaches he has talked to have said they would support his International commitments/schedule etc. if he swam for them. Our trials are usually in April, but with NCAAs in March, I wonder how that would play out…</p>

<p>Anyway, I thought I would check in, say hi, and update you all in where we are (probably more like where I am!):). Good luck still.</p>

<p>@swimdogmom, @swim4school, @asmuoh – Ooops, I see where I injected some confusion at the end of my post. The concern isn’t financial in the sense that this particular school is any more expensive than the others (or that we are hoping for a scholarship), financially all the schools look about the same to us. I just meant that 4 years of college is a huge purchase, and I guess I wanted to be as excited about our son’s ultimate choice as I hope our son will be. The school I’m talking about has an incredible academic reputation, the swim program is improving, and I like the coach. I’m just not personally all that excited about the location or culture of the place. </p>

<p>Our son has decided to take an OV there. I guess we’ll have to see how things shake out between now and then. I figure 3 basic things could happen:</p>

<p>1) He could decide that this is the perfect school for him, a clear first choice, in which case I guess I have a high class problem that is my issue to deal with (Its a great school that a lot of people really want to attend, so I have to remember that our son’s experiences are different than mine were, by design, and therefore he’s going to make some decisions that I wouldn’t).</p>

<p>2) He could decide that a couple schools are about the same in his eyes (we’ve really tried to instill in him all along that there is more than one right school and not to get his heart set on one), in which case my reservations might help break a tie.</p>

<p>3) He could decide that another school is more right for him – About all of which, I don’t have any reservations.</p>

<p>Another question on another subject. Anybody have any insight into what’s happening at Brown? Officially, their coach retired (I liked him) and now they are looking for a new one. In the meantime, recruiting appears to be on hold. Tough time to be in transition. Anybody heard anything?</p>

<p>@researchmum. I don’t envy the complicated decision you and your son will be facing. This is complicated enough knowing my son will be going to school in our country! I also understand the “swimming well and being on the podium but not swimming as well as hoped”. That was my son at his national meet. He did go 2 PB’s and the other 2 were very close and his relay splits were faster than last year. Much better than winter nats adding lots of time to everything. But we did watch the USA jr nats and senior nats and really the majority of those kids didn’t have PB’s either. I guess as you get faster it just gets harder - and I am talking about the kids that were fully tapered. </p>

<p>As far as your advice - I think you are spot on but unfortunately we are in the #3 category I believe. I just really wish this was more clear by now. I truly believe my son is in the category that swim4school’s daughter was in - more activity might occur in late September early October - just need to be patient. But he does have an OV scheduled the last week of August and I am a bit concerned that that coach will want an answer sooner - we will see. UGH!!!</p>

<p>@ahsmuoh‌, you are so right. Regarding PBs though, I think that for most swimmers that interest Div1 coaches, unless they are already training like a physically mature man would, then they should still be able to eke out PBs at 2 tapered meets a year until they hit their 20s. The PBs might be small, but I think they should still be able to. Good that your S got the ones he did - it sound like he had a very productive meet. I honestly think that your S will be fine because he can offer such versatility. </p>

<p>Regarding pressure on the OVs , I also feel sure that you are right - again haha. I wonder though if the more experienced parents can share how they cleared that hurdle when their kids were at this stage… In any event, I hope he and @1HappyDad‌’s S have great positive experiences on their OVs.</p>

<p>@Researchmum Thank you for the warm wishes to our son. His first trip is in September, and he’s pretty excited about it. It will be his first time flying alone, making a transfer, and he finds it exciting.</p>

<p>In the US, as a gross overgeneralization, the arc of a male swimmer’s career is such that they improve throughout high school, but often plateau through freshman year of college, and then return to improvement through the rest of their college careers. Again, gross overgeneralization, as actual mileage may vary, but fairly typical. I’m not really sure why this is. Perhaps it has something to do with adjusting to college life, or it may be the 20 hour/week training limit the NCAA imposes which for some kids is a step down in training.</p>

<p>I’m not really as familliar with how international swimmers perform over the arc of their careers. I know some kids really excell in yards, and for some all the turns leave a mismatch between their LCM and SCY times. As @ahsmuoh points out, I don’t envy you the extra complication of international considerations. Process seems stressful enough even as a purely domestic affair. </p>

<p>It really sounds like your son is a heck of a swimmer. I hope that one of these days we can exchange notes offline so I know who to root for in the next Olympics!</p>

<p>Well my son got a call from one of the two he was really hoping to hear from today. He wasn’t home so I don’t know the outcome of the call but the coach did say “just back from senior nats”. He emailed my son this afternoon and then called him about an hour ago. I hope it went well ;)</p>

<p>@ahsmuoh‌, that is great news! Fingers crossed, eh. </p>

<p>@1HappyDad‌, hmm, that is interesting and it makes perfect sense that there would be a dip in the Freshman year. I think general swimming wisdom dictates that it takes around 1 year to adjust to a new programme, and this ties in with what you say. </p>

<p>I also think from the impression you have about my S, I may have over ‘bigged’ him up, if I could use teenager speak here. He is good for his age - IMV, not really much different (from what has been shared) from your S and @ahsmuoh‌’s, but perhaps even less because his interest is very narrow. He has had some good opportunities because being in a smaller country than where you are, the competition is not as fierce. He has big dreams like most of them this age do, but who is to say if they will come true, or not… I think if he makes the right decision for from next year, his chances will be a little bit improved, but here again is what is causing me some difficulty. I think I know what would be best for him, but 1) it is not my dream and so do not think I have the right to influence too much (subject to cost), and 2) I could be wrong, and this is the main reason why I must ‘sit on my hands’. Only time will tell where they will all end up.</p>

<p>It is excellent that your S is excited about his OV. They are growing up so fast. Before we know it, they will be graduating and starting on the next phases of their lives. It is so scary, but super exciting too. Please share how he gets on, and continued good wishes from me.</p>