Junior year planning and breadth vs depth – very long, sorry

Parents Forum
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<p>I’m looking for advice/ideas/reactions to our planning dilemma for my d’s junior year. </p>

<p>She’s homeschooled, gifted artist and math kid, put art on the back burner for a few years while blasting through a bunch of AoPS courses. Now she wants to get back to art seriously, and do a double major or dual degree in art and applied math. She’s at this point interested in a range of schools – universities, LACs and engineering schools with cool high-tech art programs. (a few from the current - long - list are Cornell, Carnegie Mellon, Rice, Vanderbilt, Carleton, Oberlin, RPI, Rochester) </p>

<p>Her education has been a little idiosyncratic and we’d planned to have junior year be time to fill in a bunch of gaps and get some neglected boxes checked off. But now that she also wants to play catch-up in art and spend a lot of time on it, and it doesn’t seem possible to do it all. So we’re trying to figure out what should stay , what should go, what should be emphasized.</p>

<p>I understand that colleges are more interested in depth than breadth, but I’m not sure quite how literally or how far to take that. And for homeschoolers, some colleges say explicitly that since you had a chance to do something different, they expect you to have done so, and not just replicated the bricks-and-mortar high school experience at home.</p>

<p>Superscoring her 8th and 9th grade SATs, scores are 760M/660CR/690W. 8th grade ACT composite 30 (34 in math; clunkers in usage mechanics and the annoying science section). I’m assuming that these will improve with the help of age and Princeton Review, but won’t end up as perfect scores.</p>

<p>APs 9th grade: Psych-5, Bio-5, Calc BC-4, AB subscore-5. APs 10th grade: Physics C Mechanics, Micro, Macro.</p>

<p>She doesn’t like straight history and is planning to do a self-study APUSH next year; it’ll be her only history. Senior year she’ll take a semester of sociology and one of anthropology at the local branch of the state univ; she likes social sciences, just not history. She took linguistics and psychology last year, and this year economics and a course on Negotiations and Diplomatic Theory.</p>

<p>For English she’s planning on a writing course at same state univ in the fall and AP Eng Lit prep with a tutor in the spring. She’s not planning on doing AP Lang. The teacher for the Lit prep is truly extraordinary, and the work in close analytical reading and essay writing should be help with her SATs, ACTs, and application essays.</p>

<p>She’s done all the work for AP Music Theory this year, but needs time to practice her aural skills, so will be doing that practice on her own next year, with some small group work.</p>

<p>For science, she’s got credits for Bio, AP Bio, a semester of ninth-grade physical science and the first semester of community college physics w/calculus (taking Physics C mechanics exam next week). So she’ll be taking AP Chemistry (respected distance learning program with reasonable workload). She’s planning to take Anatomy and Physiology at the cc in senior year.</p>

<p>We have a day of homeschool high school classes that’s an important social thing, at which there’s an incredible teacher for statistics, who’ll cover the bases for the AP exam but make it ever so much more interesting. There will also be an art history course that won’t be specifically AP but could be so if supplemented with self- study. And music composition, something she’s done on her own but never studied, and been wanting to.</p>

<p>She’ll finish Multivariable Calculus in November, and then would take a break from math for the rest of junior year and take either Linear Algebra or Ordinary Differential Equations her senior year.</p>

<p>Language study has been scattershot. She has credit for a year of high school French and a year of Chinese. But then she wanted to switch to German. It’s a self-paced class that keeps getting clobbered by things with hard deadlines, so she’s completed only one full year’s study between this year and last. Getting four years in is obviously a no-can-do at this point. The question is how hard to push to complete three years worth of German.</p>

<p>All of these sacrifices to the recommended-preparation gods don’t leave her a lot of time to do…art, which was supposed to be her main thing these days. </p>

<p>She’s pretty serious about music (advanced pianist, intermediate guitarist, beginning vocalist) and heavily involved in Model UN. Semi-retired from figure skating but will teach special-needs skaters next year and maybe take some beginning coaching courses. Bakes for a soup kitchen every week, and has some service-project fundraiser/public awareness ideas using her artwork.</p>

<p>If you’re still reading at this point, thanks much, and I look forward to any advice and suggestions.</p>

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<p>What a fascinating dilemma! Have you posted in the homeschooling forum too? I’m not a homeschooler, (though did consider it with my eldest many times), I know some of the issues, but am not well-versed on college acceptances. It sounds like in terms of scores and tests she’s in great shape. SAT scores will probably go up, but they are good enough now to get into plenty of good schools, though some of the schools on your list will probably still be in the reachy arena.</p>

<p>I’m a bit concerned about the only one history - there will be schools that would like to see something that looks like a year of World History. Not at all worried about the lack of two AP English courses. One is more than enough. Both my kids bagged both AP English options and did pretty well - including some on your list. (Harvard, Carnegie Mellon, RPI, WPI for the oldest a comp sci guy and Vassar, Tufts, U of Chicago and American for the younger one.) But if the AP Lit is a great course I’m sure having the credentials as a homeschooler is a good thing.</p>

<p>Will she be okay with the math break? Some kids forget a lot. She sounds like such a strong math student it worries me, but I also understand something has to give. The foreign language is an issue, but not too much you can do about it at this point. Many school are looking for 3 years and prefer 4, if she takes a Community College course it likely covers more than a typical high school course for what that’s worth.</p>

<p>If she wants to go to art school she’ll need a good portfolio, and producing one is time consuming. She should check requirements at schools carefully. CMU has great art and decent math - but I don’t know if you can double major in those two areas or not. </p>

<p>Many schools are looking for kids who have covered the bases, but are not naturally that well rounded. So it’s great if she can demonstrate that she excels in math and art and tick off the rest. The problem is that is sounds like she’s actually pretty interested in a lot of other things beyond that. I don’t know how important volunteer work is - my kids did it in the summer, using skills related to their interests, but pursued other interests during the school year.</p>

<p>I think you should be looking to have as close as possible to the following:
4 years of math (you are way ahead here)
4 years of English (also more than good enough)
2 years of the same Foreign Language, preferably 3 - not quite there, but probably close enough
2 years of History (I wouldn’t drop this one , no matter how much she hates it)
3 years of Science (you seem to be more than fine here)
1 year of Art/Music (more than fine)</p>

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<p>Thanks for your thoughts! If she wanted to go to art school, the path would be so much clearer - but she doesn’t, and it’s what we’d prefer also. At most of the schools of interest she’d be applying for admission to the school as a whole, not to the art department. And at Cornell and CMU, which have dual-degree programs, she’d be applying to the art school directly but also to the college of arts & sciences at Cornell and MCS at CMU. So we can’t just throw everything she’s got at the portfolio like she would if she were applying to art school.</p>

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<p>I agree, but I don’t think it’s impossible to do AP Art on top of a full schedule - or at least I did so back in the day. I always thought doing art every year kept me sane. I really liked what I saw coming out of the art department at CMU by the way. I was somewhat like your daughter - strongest in math and art, though unlike her I loved history and I am not at all musical. Ended up in architecture, which I thought used my talents fairly well.</p>

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<p>At CMU, one good option might be the BSA program (Bachelor of Science and Arts), which allows students to do one degree in CFA and one degree in MCS. I think it relaxes the requirements a little for each, so that it’s possible to do both degrees. If you google “CMU BXA” you can find info about all the different combined programs (BSA, BCSA, BHA). </p>

<p>Obviously, this doesn’t eliminate the need to have a good portfolio, but I think it’s a somewhat unique option. Also, if they find her math skills strong enough, but not the art, she could still be admitted into MCS, and not into BSA. I had a friend apply for BCSA (comp sci/tech theatre in the school of drama), and she was admitted for CS, but not to the BCSA program. She ended up still coming to do just CS.</p>

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<p>I’m not sure I agree with this. We homeschooled our daughters, and they both got into top LACs. In interviews, the main thing admissions officers wanted to probe was whether our daughters had gotten well-rounded and rigorous HS educations. Several of them quite bluntly said many homeschooled applicants were “lopsided” with major gaps in their HS educations, especially in math and science. Our daughters were easily able to meet what they were looking for: 4 years of math, 4 years of science (including at least 3 years of lab), 4+ years of English and/or world literature with lots of writing, 4+ years of history/social science, 4+ years of foreign and/or classical languages. Each of them brought unique, in-depth homeschooling endeavors on top of that. That makes a pretty compelling case. Yes, colleges like depth, but the better colleges want to see depth on top of a well-rounded foundation.</p>

<p>In your case, I’m not sure there’s all that much to worry about: the math and science are certainly there, and there are plenty of social science credits–though some colleges might prefer to see more history (and I might agree with them on that). The art and music are big pluses, and the ECs are pretty good. To me, though, the work in English/writing is a bit spotty, and it shows in her SAT and ACT scores. Maybe you’re right that age, test prep, and a good tutor (plus a college writing class) will help, but a 660 CR score is on the low side for many of the colleges you mentioned. Most students who develop strong reading and writing skills get it from a steady diet of reading and writing over 4 years of HS English, and sometimes from extensive reading and writing in history classes as well. In our homeschooling daughters’ case, it came from a steady diet of writing classes, as well as writing assignments in English classes and in substantive classes other than English; structured sequences of U.S., British, and world literature; many years of studying and performing Shakespeare’s plays; and voracious reading for pleasure. </p>

<p>As for foreign languages, this is more important to some schools than to others, but to those that care about it, dabbling in 3 different languages is not nearly as impressive as building a solid foundation in one. I know it’s too late to change that now, but this might raise a caution flag for some admissions officers. It isn’t too late to get in 3 years of German, and I’d make that a priority. In fact, since your daughter is already planning to take some college classes, she might want to consider taking several semesters of college-level German. As a rough rule of thumb, many schools consider a college semester of a foreign language the equivalent of a HS year because the college classes move that much faster. If the year of German she already has would allow her to place into second-semester (advanced beginner) college German, she could actually complete her second semester of intermediate German by the middle of her senior year, and that would be a solid foundation. Even if the college wanted her to start at Beginner I, she still has time to get in 4 semesters of college German, the equivalent of 4 years of HS German. College language classes are a serious time commitment, so that bumps up against the time for art. I’d say that’s more important than the Anthro and Sociology courses she’s planning to take. </p>

<p>If she doesn’t do the German, I’d personally recommend dropping Anthro and Sociology in favor of a good college-level literature class and a college-level history class. Nothing against anthro or soc, but they’re extra frills at this point, coming at the expense of more foundational stuff. You said she doesn’t like history, but this is just what college admissions officers don’t want to see: homeschoolers using their homeschooling to avoid foundational subjects they don’t like. My daughters love literature, theater, history, social sciences, foreign languages–pretty much anything in the humanities and social sciences. They would have preferred to skip math and science completely, or at least to keep those subjects to a minimum. We didn’t allow that to happen, and I’m convinced it made them much stronger college applicants.</p>

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<p>^ Just to amplify on my basic point in post #6: I know Harvard isn’t on your daughter’s current list, but here’s what Harvard’s admissions office says it’s looking for.</p>

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<p>And here’s what Yale says about “balance”:</p>

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<p>Of course, Harvard and Yale can afford to be exceptionally choosy, but I think many leading colleges are basically looking for the same things in an applicant.</p>

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<p>Thanks so much for the thoughtful and detailed reply, Good points all around. The more selective schools do want it all.</p>

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<p>It seems to me that your daughter has already exceeded requirements for high school and should let her natural interests guide her at this point. ( Meaning art, maybe music-?)</p>

<p>I don’t think, as a homeschooling parent, that you need overcompensate, honestly, and the best approach would be to maximize the benefits of homeschooling, meaning freedom and time to study an authentic “passion” and work on one’s own schedule.</p>

<p>In general, since required high school classes have been taken, maybe stop letting college admissions direct choices. Relax and let things happen.</p>

<p>And yes, top colleges often value “outliers” who have had unconventional paths that focus on one or two areas in depth- as long as they are confident the student can do the work.</p>

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<p>I think I generally agree with compmom. My son was partially homeschooled and did no foreign language (gifted but severely dyslexic in a way that made language hard). The schools said, if you didn’t have sufficient language study, you need to show that you did something valuable with the time you freed up. He got in to a number of top schools. He did 4 years of art (some at the school and some homeschooled) and may have submitted portfolios but had no intention of making that a serious part of college academics. He also was a coauthor of a young adults novel, although his coauthor has never been willing to declare it finished and send it to a couple of publishers who evinced interest. But, at the time, that was evidence of doing something extra if he wasn’t doing science.</p>

<p>One thing: the science section of the ACTs is not science. It is almost all about how to read graphs and reason from them. If she is good at math and studies for it that way, she’ll boost her score.</p>

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<p>I have to disagree with this. The student is off the charts in math and very strong in science. If I were a college admissions officer, however, I’d see deficiencies in English, foreign language, and maybe history if I’m Harvard or any other school that thinks the study of history is an important element in a foundational HS education. I’m not saying the student won’t be admitted to the colleges she’s aiming for; some very good schools admit a lot of “lopsided” applicants. But she’ll present a stronger admissions profile if she fills in some of those deficiencies, which she still has ample time to do.</p>

<p>As a homeschooling parent, I would say in general homeschoolers have a higher burden of persuasion than students who follow a more conventional HS path. Every college will now admit homeschoolers, but many start from a mildly negative presumption. Homeschoolers have extraordinary opportunities to excel in their areas of strength, but if that comes at the cost of sacrificing some basics, it may not play well with admissions committees.</p>

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<p>In our experience, if test scores and ECs are high enough (and I mean, say, national level EC awards), schools won’t mind lopsidedness. My son was very lopsided-lots of math and physics (he also had five years of language including AP Lit) and only two semesters of community college Arabic to count as foreign language. He also <em>barely</em> eked out 4 years of history (self-studied a year of Islam which was basically reading books and attending/listening to lectures; took an online World History class; took one semester of US History at the CC; took an online worldview class which had no homework other than reading). Despite his weakness in these two areas, he was admitted to all his schools including two Ivies and three STEM schools.</p>

<p>So, OP, I would encourage you to cover the basics anyway you can. I did make sure my son had 4 years of everything (and yes, I stretched it!), or at least that had been my plan. I had planned for him to take another semester of Arabic but the classes were impacted so he never did; that was an area he fell short but it worked out ok.</p>

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<p>sbjdorlo, I don’t see your kid as having a weakness on paper. Two years of college Arabic is almost certainly equal to 3 or 4 of high school, and he may well have gotten brownie points for taking a notoriously difficult language. Four years of history, even if not particularly well taught, is fine. And the STEM schools are the ones mostly likely not to care about depth in foreign language and history.</p>

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<p>With the AP courses and tests, I think she is looking good. Do make sure you read the recommendations for homeschoolers at each school I think the history gap would be easy for you to fill in the next two years. I agree with Mathmom, that the paperwork looks mighty fine.</p>

<p>Be aware that some of the highly selective schools want SAT2 and even require them, and some require extra ones or recommend them for homeschooled kids. According to our counselor, those schools want those SAT2s even if the student has a 5 AP score in the subject as they use a 5 subject SAT comparison in their application process many times.</p>

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<p>^ An example of a school that has very different standardized testing requirements for homeschoolers is Bowdoin. They are test-optional for conventional applicants, but for homeschooled students they require the ACT or SAT plus “two or more” SAT Subject Tests, including one math and one science. Bowdoin would have been on my D2’s list of top schools but she felt the extreme disparity in their testing requirements reflected an unwarranted negative attitude toward homeschoolers, such that she didn’t even bother to apply. In her case, she’ll have grades from 12 college classes at our public flagship and a local LAC by the time she graduates, plus grades from 6 IB or IB Prep-level classes she took a la carte at our local public high school, plus grades from 3 years of a high school credit courses at a nationally recognized summer language camp, each summer the equivalent to one year of HS foreign language. So that’s 21 grades from objective third-party instructors, many of them in classes more advanced than typical HS classes–about as many grades (if not more) in academic subjects as a conventionally schooled HS applicant would have (including math and science grades, which seems to be what Bowdoin is concerned about), yet the conventional applicant can apply test-optional, and D2 couldn’t. It’s not even that she wanted to apply test-optional; her test scores were just fine. It’s the extreme disparity in treatment that bothered her, and made her feel unwelcome.</p>

<p>Some other schools have a very different and more welcoming attitude toward homeschoolers. I’d underscore what cptofthehouse says: it’s worth some careful examination of each school’s requirements and “recommendations” for homeschoolers.</p>

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<p>You need to explore in depth what schools are looking for in terms of the art portfolio. Most will want to see good technique in terms of figure drawing and drawings from observation. But past that, depending on the program, what they are looking for will vary. D had a portfolio that was more traditional, technique based–based on projects from her hs art program that included realistic drawings and paintings using pen and ink, acrylic paints, chalk and colored pencils. She added some figure drawing and sculpture from outside classes to her original portfolio. But ultimately, when her portfolio was reviewed by the art school that was her top choice in a pre-screening, they made it clear that they wanted to see more creative and conceptual pieces. So ultimately, she re-did half of her portfolio to make it more creative and more individualized to who she was as an artist. She worked for about a month to create about 7 or 8 new pieces–but they were looser and told more of her story as an artist. </p>

<p>So my advice would be to speak to the individual schools before she spends a lot of time on her portfolio. It may take less time than you think to present a portfolio that is creative and true to her as an artist.</p>

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<p>You don’t mention any financial constraints, lucky you!
That will help a great deal with schools that are need aware & meet 100% need but no merit.</p>

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<p>I didn’t mention them, but there are indeed financial constraints. So she’ll be looking at schools that have the money for scholarship aid for, in Andrew Ferguson’s wonderful phrase, ‘the bottom quintile of the lower upper middle class’ though those are of course the hardest to get into, and will be reaches. So she’ll also look at schools that offer merit aid and where she will be a very strong applicant and therefore a good candidate for it.</p>

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<p>I’m so glad to hear that, uskoolfish, that it might not take a lot of time to put together a good portfolio, since time is feeling in very short supply.</p>

<p>I looked at a couple of university art school websites - I can’t remember which right now - that mentioned the importance of including work that the applicant has done on his/her own, outside of school or workshop settings. So, heaven help us, there needs to be time for that, too.</p>