Kids Applying to 18 Schools!!

Parents Forum
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<p>shawbridge, that may be so about the kid who applied to 36 programs/schools. But I can't see how one puts the kind of individualized attention into each application to gear it to that school and so forth. But again, different strokes for different folks. </p>

<p>In my view, even in the MOST competitive processes in admissions, 36 is not necessary to be admitted. If one is truly an appropriate candidate, one should be admitted even if applying to 12. </p>

<p>It is true that I don't have a child of my own applying to accelerated med programs. But my own children, as well as advisees, have applied to extremely competitive colleges or programs with very low admit rates. Those who were competitive applicants were successful with 10 schools and landed several admits. Those who are not successful, were likely not appropriate candidates for the schools/programs on their list in the first place. Even with low admit rates which are very chancy odds, if you are truly an appropriate candidate, you should be admitted somewhere and it should not require 36 apps to get a hit. </p>

<p>I'll just give my own kids as examples. D1 applied to some of the hardest schools in the country. We knew she was an appropriate candidate but also knew realistically the odds were tough. But we felt confident she'd get in somewhere. She had reaches, matches and safeties. She applied to 8 schools. Four were reaches, two were matches, and two were safeties. All were quite selective. Results: Deferred than denied at one reach, waitlisted at one reach, accepted at two reaches (these first four were all Ivies), accepted at two matches, accepted at two safeties. Had plenty of choices. </p>

<p>D2 applied to 8 BFA in Musical Theater programs. The acceptance rate at most programs on her list was between 2-6% and about 7-9% at one or two of them. Those are very long shot odds and there is also a subjective audition involved. Results: Denied at 1, Accepted at 1 college but not the program she wanted, Priority Waitlisted at 1, Accepted to 5. Lots of choices including her first choice. She did not need more apps to get a hit as she was an appropriate candidate. No telling which schools would accept her but she should have gotten into at least one and it was much better than that. </p>

<p>D1 applied to 10 graduate programs in her field and these were 10 of the top programs in the country. The admit rate at most of them was between 10-20%. Also, most accepted are not straight out of college as she was but they do take some. Very difficult odds. Also had subjective component in a portfolio. Got into 6 of them including some of the tippy top ones in the country. She did not need more than 10 apps to get a hit as she was an appropriate candidate. </p>

<p>So, even in very competitve admissions processes, one should not need more than about 12 schools to garner one or more acceptances. If they need more, then they may not be in the running in the first place, or just not focused enough on their college selection. There are exceptions of course. But once you start getting past 14 apps, I cannot think of many exceptions. I surely see no justification for 36 apps! If this kid is a competitive candidate, he doesn't need 36 apps to get admitted. Now, if he is not in the running and it is a stretch, different story. When an appropriate candidate applies to a school or program with very low acceptance rates, it clearly is very chancy odds even if highly qualified for that school. But IF highly qualified, such a candidate WILL get into some schools and it doesn't take more than 12 or so to get an acceptance if the schools are in his/her range.</p>

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<p>The cut in state funding of state schools is not restricted to California. The CA systems have just been more public about this than some other state systems.</p>

<p>This means that these schools will increase in selectivity. The Cal State U system until now guaranteed a spot somewhere in its entire system for student who meet all eligibility requirements. This is now no longer true (so a loss of safety and match schools). This years students should investigate closely what they consider their "sure bet schools" as there will be a ripple effect in several state systems.</p>

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<p>Accelerated combined BA/MD programs are so competitive, admission is entirely stochastic for the incredibly competitive pool of applicants for these programs. Therefore admittance to any is not guaranteed despite an incredible application. </p>

<p>This would again not obey the statistic rules that you generalize for the average applicant for an average undergraduate school. This situation would fall into non-normal statistics. </p>

<p>An aside, I was not aware there were as many as 36 such programs in the US!</p>

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<p>ParAlum....is the admit rate lower than 3% at all these programs? Just asking. I fully understand how highly competitive it is. But the BFA in MT programs almost all accept less than 6%. There are not that many of them in the country. The students whom I know who are truly competitive candidates, are not closed out of all programs. They did not apply to more than 12. Some like my D, applied to 8. MANY students are denied at all of them. I feel most of these students were not truly competitive for the programs. Yes, the odds are very very long even for the most qualified candidates. But if one is truly qualified for these HIGHLY selective specialized programs, they should get into one or more. And it need not take 36 to land that hit. As I said, I had a child apply to specialized programs which the average person here knows nothing about how competitive it truly is. It is harder to get into than an Ivy League school. These programs take about 5% of applicants and the national pool of talent is very competitive and there is a subjective component that weighs heavily in the admissions decision. As well, there are factors one can't control as to "type" and how many of their type they will take. You are not even vying for all spots in these BFA programs. In some programs, there may be one or two slots open for someone of your type and LOTS of applicants vying for it. Very long shot odds. So, I have been quite involved in this kind of thing not only with my own child, but a majority of my advisees are also applying to these very very long shot odds programs. None have more than 13 schools on their list, even so.</p>

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<p>My children both applied to the same group of BS/MD programs with similar stats and medical experiences. Each got accepted & rejected to completely different programs. BTW the acceptance rate can be 3% for some of these programs. They applied to quite a few.</p>

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<p>oreo...that's a great example. I know when my kid applied to the programs she did that accept about 5%, we had no idea WHICH ones she'd get into as the odds were so long. But as a competitive candidate, we figured at least one would come through. That's the point. If you are in the running, you can be denied due to the low admit rates but you usually won't be shut out. You won't need 36 apps to get in somewhere. You might need as many as 12. Most who are entirely shut out, likely do not have the right list for themselves. </p>

<p>Like your example, there was one other kid from our HS who applied to the same type of degree programs that my D did, which again are HIGHLY competitive. Oddly and not that realistically, the other student only applied to TWO! My D applied to 8. But anyway, the other girl got denied at school A and accepted into school B. My D got accepted at school A and denied at school B (was accepted into that college but not the program actually). So, this is VERY VERY common as the odds make it so. But if you are a true contender for these competitive programs, you are unlikely to be completely shut out. A true contender doesn't need 36 schools to get into one.</p>

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<p>uh how do ppl w/18 schools even manage to complete all the apps/essays/finaid on time? </p>

<p>i'd LOVE to apply to that many schools if it were free to apply AND no additional requirements such as essays/short answers</p>

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<p>^^^ Great question. In my view, a big drawback to 18 apps is that in order to put the kind of care and attention into each essay and each application and demonstrate interest in each college.....that would mean either the effort on each app is going to be diluted or else it means that to find time to do really good apps for 18 schools, one might have to forego something....either some ECs or schoolwork, etc. I know the time my own kids and advisees put into each application and multiple essays and many drafts of each. I know for those who are heavily engaged in EC commitments as well as challenging classes, it is a challenge to fit in that kind of work even for 10 apps. So, something has to give....either the quality of the apps, or the commitments to ECs that are significant time commitments or the like.</p>

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<p>sooziet</p>

<p>Thank-you for a polite and positive discussion of these issues.</p>

<p>I do continue to stress not to focus on numbers of applications. Rather focus (as you do nicely suggest) on the quality. I would suggest that if students focus on completing high quality applications, they will self limit the number they are able to do. As I mentioned before, one of mine did 9 applications while the other actually did 23 applications (for comparision I only did 4 when I applied back in ancient history). Surprisingly to me, the 23 applications were incredibly high quality yielding 20 acceptances to highly competitive schools. This child was using the process of writing the applications to work out what type of program (intense music, intense science or more liberal arts approach). I really couldn't choose for this one! </p>

<p>I would not recommend this number as appropriate. I would not recommend any number. I recommend high priority to understanding why you are applying and a high priority into completing a quality application. </p>

<p>My personal tolerance if I was doing the apps, probably 5 at max! but this reflects the limits of my interest and effort!</p>

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<p>ParAlum, </p>

<p>I definitely think that the number of schools one applies to is a very individual decision and it will vary from applicant to applicant and various factors come into play and certain circumstances can warrant a higher number of applications needed. So, there is no blanket "right way."</p>

<p>In your son's case, he had not yet decided between specialized music programs, specialized science programs or liberal arts programs. I have had students who could not decide between different types of degree programs and this has necessitated needing more apps than a student who has made that sort of decision with some direction before applying. However, I must say that for these applicants, they haven't gone over 15 apps. Twenty-three seems like a lot to me! Also, for those who have not been able to decide between a specialized degree program involving a commitment and a liberal arts type degree program (similar major but not one that involves a commitment into a specialized program), it has often been an indicator that the BA degree path was the most appropriate one as that path doesn't require a commitment at age 17. The indecision about it itself has often proven what path is most appropriate. Which path did your son end up choosing...the specialized music programs, the specialized science ones, or the more liberal arts degrees that allow music or science but have no commitment upon entering? </p>

<p>Back in my day, yes, I only applied to five schools but clearly everything has changed these days and it is definitely more competitive too. And for grad school, I only applied to 2! :)</p>

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<p>for grad school, I only applied to one! but thats just me. </p>

<p>23 is a lot, but this one did it and did it well while staying highly involved in all their senior year activities. It was my child's choice not mine AND I have to say it was not a wasted set of energy. It was a discernment process that competed with various teacher recommendations to take one path or the other. Again, I stress this was a very specific situation and that my other child only applied to 9!</p>

<p>I was also surprised that the portfolios were so well received with acceptances (20) in highly competitive programs in all three categories. LAC was the final decision, but it was also important for this one to know they were competitive at the best programs in each specialized area. Otherwise, I do not think that they would have been able to be happy and comfortable with the LAC choice. </p>

<p>As we both agree, its an individual choice. AND as parents we have to be honest with our children when they are completing sub-par essays that demonstrate lack of interest and effort.</p>

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<p>*uh how do ppl w/18 schools even manage to complete all the apps/essays/finaid on time?</p>

<p>i'd LOVE to apply to that many schools if it were free to apply AND no additional requirements such as essays/short answers*</p>

<p>I started my applications in mid-July. The Common App went online again July 1st, and although some schools had not posted their supplements posted until September, most of the ones I was looking at at the time were online in July and August, and it gave me plenty of time to work on my application essay as well as put enough time into the essays/short answers to finish them all (except for one late addition) by mid-October.</p>

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<p>Skullduggery....your solution is a good one but also points out how these things are so individual. My own kids went away every summer for the entire summer to programs. They were not only nowhere near a computer all summer but had NO free time during their entire summer programs. They started working on the college application process in late August of their app year.</p>

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<p>You are quite right in the process being personal in that way, although to be fair, I would probably have done the same thing as your kids if I had the money to do the programs that I really want to, and my school offers very little opportunity to do anything. :*P But I only had some online courses that I was taking to free up my senior year a little bit, which gives me tons of extra time after school this year. I'm one of those people who really enjoys being busy (as long as it's not *too stressful).</p>

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<p>skullduggery, if you have the time, then it is different. My kids were never home after school or any evening during the week or on weekends due to their ECs and so the time was more limited. They were good at time management and did their 8 apps and many essays just fine. One of my kids also had to do audition preparation and attend 8 college auditions which added an entire other layer to the admissions process that regular applicants do not have. Somehow it all gets done. But how it works out for each kid and the time frames they have to work with also vary.</p>

<p>Good luck to you in your college process!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I think it is very possible to build a balanced list of 8-10 schools that will yield results. I work with many students applying to colleges, including in this year's cycle but I still maintain that in the majority of situations, 8-12 should work if the list is appropriate and balanced. There may be exceptions due to certain circumstances, however. I'm just talking about the majority or typical applicant.

[/quote]
Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. What makes sense to you might not make sense to me I do not see a problem with my son applying to 15 places.</p>

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<p>There is a real tradeoff between time to complete applications and time to visit schools and get information about whether one wants to apply to a particular school and whether it seems like a good fit. One strategy is to spend time and money up-front aiming -- getting a set of 8-10 schools that fit. But this approach (aiming) takes time that could be invested in applications (and money) The alternative strategy is one in which the student applies to a larger number of schools 15-18 with the belief that he/she will get into a subset but it is hard to predict which of the 15-18 will be the ones that admit him/her. Rather than invest time/money in deciding which schools to apply to, the second school suggests investing time in doing a really good job on the applications and then visit the schools to which one is accepted. I don't think it is obvious which is the best strategy.</p>

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<p>Shawbridge,
S1 took aim at developing a tight list that fit him very well. Visited all of the schools (some more than once, and some solo trips), talked to profs, students, and had a great nationwide network of friends from his ECs who gave him wonderful input. (Thank goodness for frequent flyer/Amtrak miles and that he is a happily independent traveler.) He focused on four schools, tailored the essays to them, and used the same essays for the rest of his apps. Got into those four, three with merit $$. My hunch is that the other schools saw he was a clear fit elsewhere. His approach was absolutely perfect for him. He knows what he wants to do, was drilling down on specific departments and knew what kind of environment he was seeking.</p>

<p>With S2...we will do some visiting, but I don't see him doing the same kind of legwork. Frankly, what he wants to study lends itself to a variety of potential majors, so specific programs per se are less important. He may not do much in the super-reach range, but will probably apply widely to his "targets" -- schools where he has a decent shot and where he'd really like to attend.</p>

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<p>With regard to Shawbridge - I couldn't figure out how we would get the visits, the weekends, etc. in during snow season to do the legwork after the apps are in and/or after the acceptances arrive to apply wide and wait and see where the acceptances are. We have found that junior year and the summer/fall of the senior year affords plenty of time for the kids to do the research, work arounod the weather, schedule some visits with a travel logistics and budget in mind, narrow the list down etc.</p>

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<p>momofthreeboys, good point. My son is taking a gap year. He'll be busy in the winter/spring but we can build in time to visit the schools to which he is admitted or thinks are likely in February through April. If he weren't taking a gap year, it could be hard. So, narrowing the list may make more sense if visiting post-application would be hard.</p>

<p>Almost all of his schools are in driving distance -- he's had some health problems and we jointly agreed that it would be a whole lot easier to be in 4 hours driving range or less if there was a problem. He's having surgery in January that should eliminate or reduce the problems but one cannot be certain. So, he can drive by himself or with one of us in April. And four of the schools are an hour or less away. Seven are in a three-hour radius and two are 3.5 hours away, one (my alma mater) is 5 hours and one (my sister's alma mater) is 6 hours away (and unlikely, though it is a pretty good fit for him). </p>

<p>If he weren't to get into any of the reaches, I suspect his preferred choice would be within an hour. He's doing research there, his best friend goes there, we're friends with its president and a number of professors, etc. But, based on the Naviance data, it looks as if the probability of some of the reaches is over 50% (e.g., Dartmouth hasn't rejected a kid from his school with his grades and board scores in the last three to five years). While I assume that data is accurate, it may be hard to judge because it doesn't say who was a legacy or an athlete or URM. But, I'd think the probability is reasonably high.</p>