King’s College London in the US

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101

It is interesting to look at figures for assessing selectivity and yield of UK universities by looking at: Offer rates, Offer acceptance rates and Average entry tariff.

This said, Scottish universities figures are skewed, and favoured, in all 3 measures if they are included because of the “Free education for Scottish students choosing to study in Scottish universities”. This would make their offer rates low due to high volumes of application by Scots, higher average tariff as many top students choose local universities and higher offer acceptance by students so as to avoid debt; hence, I have excluded Scottish universities from the main tables.

I have also used a “Selected Universities” approach because for some of the measures, the top universities are not necessarily in the Top 10.

For example, for the Offer rates measure, beyond a 60% offer rate, it is any university’s game. Many non-top universities have offer rates lower than some of the top universities. Same for the Offer acceptance rates measure, below 29% rate, it is any university’s game.

For the entry tariff measure, 9 Scottish universities are in the Top 20; including Queen Margaret and Stirling. Also Glasgow and Strathclyde are above Oxford. All these are ridiculous and shows why I excluded Scottish universities so that the data makes some sense.

Offer Rates Amongst Selected Universities (2021)

  1. Oxford 19.1%
  2. Cambridge 21.6%
  3. LSE 21.9%
  4. Imperial 32.5%
  5. UCL 42.8%
  6. KCL 52.9%
  7. Manchester 60.2%
  8. Bath 62.7%
  9. Southampton 63.9%
  10. Leeds and QMUL 64.5%

For some Scottish and other interesting universities:
St Andrews 25.0%
Edinburgh 39.3%
Glasgow 56.3%
Bristol 64.6%
Warwick 65.1%
Durham 71.0%
Exeter 79.2%
SOAS 89.1%

Offer Acceptance Rates Amongst Selected Universities (2021)

  1. Oxford 97.0%
  2. Cambridge 89.8%
  3. LSE 48.2%
  4. Imperial 46.3%
  5. SOAS 33.5%
  6. UCL 32.7%
  7. KCL 32.0%
  8. Durham 31.2%
  9. QMUL 29.7%
  10. Newcastle 25.8%

For some Scottish and other interesting universities:
St Andrews 33.2%
Edinburgh 30.1%
Glasgow 25.2%
Warwick 24.4%
Exeter 24.2%
Bristol 22.1%
Manchester 20.4%

Average Entry Tariff Amongst Selected Universities (2021)

  1. Cambridge 205
  2. Oxford 198
  3. Imperial 197
  4. Durham 182
  5. UCL 176
  6. LSE 175
  7. Warwick 170
  8. Bath 167
  9. KCL and Bristol 164

For some Scottish and other interesting universities:
St Andrews 207
Glasgow 202
Edinburgh 187
Manchester 161
Exeter 156
SOAS 148

Note that Oxford and Cambridge offer acceptance rates are that much higher because they would both get to be the priority choice as they have no universities above them and don’t compete with each other (since a student cannot apply to both for undergrad studies). So, it is very unlikely a student will get an offer from either of them and another university and then pick the other university instead. This explains the huge gap from the rest but they are the most selective and the most irresistable. It is not necessarily a sign of gap difference in quality.

So Oxbridge universities make offers to roughly 1 in 5 applicants. Roughly 90%+ of them meet and accept the offers, and these successful applicants have some of the very highest grades. I guess some decide to go to other universities, probably mostly the most elite colleges in the US; very very few would be to the other UK universities.

It seems LSE and Imperial are both, most times, solid second choice for those that apply to these (i.e. LSE and Imperial) universities along with either Oxbridge and don’t get offers in one of the Oxbridges. This hypothesis is well-aligned to the data I produced in Post #34 above.

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102

Again, it seems not much has changed this year in regards to anxieties, trepidations and excitement about university offers amongst elite students.

The Top 11 and the Top 7 remain the same for the third year in a row; with the typical increase in gaps at these intersections/transitions. This should suggest it really is no coincidence in regards to these reputational stakeholders (i.e. students). Data really can speak and give insights when one looks at it.

The Top 20 table in 2022 for Undergraduate applicants

  1. Oxford 528
  2. Cambridge 483
  3. LSE 481
  4. UCL 479
  5. KCL 315
  6. Imperial 246
  7. Durham 235
  8. Warwick 151
  9. St Andrews 146
  10. Edinburgh 125
  11. Bristol 113
  12. Nottingham 48
  13. Manchester 47
  14. Bath 46
  15. Exeter 43
  16. Leeds 39
  17. QMUL 37
  18. York 31
  19. Glasgow 27
  20. Cardiff 24

Also, looking at similar page comparisons for postgraduate applicants’ discussion pages for universities that have more than 1 page, only change this year is Edinburgh, Warwick and Manchester overtaking Durham. The Golden Triangle still raises the most anxieties, trepidations and excitement.

Universities with more than 1 page in 2022 for Postgraduate applicants

  1. Cambridge 376
  2. Oxford 251
  3. LSE 120
  4. UCL 49*
  5. Imperial 28
  6. KCL 20
  7. Edinburgh 13
  8. Warwick 6*
  9. Manchester 3
  10. Durham 2

*UCL and Warwick have threads split into 2 that I have added up (at risk of duplications). One thread is in their individual university forum section; the other in the Postgraduate forum section.

Looking at size of postgraduate students enrolled at these universities, it can be seen that size is not the reason for this respective popularity of threads.

103

Results Day!

All the Top 11 that I repeatedly highlight have no places in clear, bar Warwick.

Obviously its vacancies are not in its more prestigious courses of Maths, Economics and Business/Management-related.

They are in areas linked to History, Chemistry, Classics, Philosophy, Languages, Biology, Area Studies & Theatre Studies.

This is why I keep saying Warwick is really famous for quantitative fields and is less famous in other fields like humanities and social sciences, hence like CMU.

All other universities outside these 10 in the Top 11, including Exeter, have places in clearing.

Nottingham must have done really badly in their offer process. There are way too much places in so many subjects (including Maths). You can basically think of any subject and there is a 30% chance they have a place in a course in it for clearing. It is really the go-to for students with high grades that need to go through clearing.

104

This exemplifies the institutionalisation of elitism I referred to earlier:

105

I know this threas is old, but you guys got me heated reading this. St. Andrews is LEAPS and BOUNDS above all of these unis except Oxbridge. It’s consistently ranked 3rd in the nation behind Oxbridge. And it’s known as the uni that everyone wants to go to if they don’t get into Oxbridge. Literally anybody of the upper class would have their eyes light up if someone they knew said they would be attending St. Andrews. St. Andrews has a very high number of privately educated students from schools like Eton, Harrow, Winchester, etc. As well as American and other foreign schools like Andover and Exeter.

I also find it interesting that you all have STATE schools and lower ranked ivies/elites before you have STANFORD. Stanford ranks behind nobody other than Harvard and MAYBE Princeton. The only difference is it’s on the West Coast instead of the East.

106

Do you have any kind of evidence for the bolded in the quoted.

In the meantime, while waiting for your response, let me start by addressing some of your other points that I actually think are factual.

“It’s consistently ranked 3rd in the nation behind Oxbridge.”

On which tables?

Local national league tables?

You need to start understanding that UK local national league tables are not great tools for prestige or reputation. Their metrics are poor for that (inadequate and quite outdated).

They are great for understanding student happiness though.

Saw Complete University’s National League table recently, and Loughborough and Lancaster are in Top 10.

While Lancaster might just about make Top 25 in the UK in terms of reputation (forget prestige, because I really do not think prestige goes beyond 11 UK universities), Loughborough on the other hand will not be in even the Top 30.

They might be great universities to experience studying in though. The essential point is that the local rankings are kind of strongly off track for university reputations.

“St. Andrews has a very high number of privately educated students from schools like Eton, Harrow, Winchester, etc. As well as American and other foreign schools like Andover and Exeter.”

Yes, St Andrews is quite a posh and prestigious university that attracts the wealthy. Exeter does too (and, although a top university, I don’t regard it as prestigious).

Just like USC, NYU, Boston College, Georgetown and Villanova attract students from wealthy families in the States. That does not mean they are the next best thing after HYPSMC.

107

When I said Exter, I meant Philips Exeter Academy. A boarding school in the US with a similar prestige as Harrow, etc. Just not as old.

And my information comes from tables that you just called unreliable. So I have no idea now to be honest if that’s the case.

108

I knew that is what you said and meant.

I know about Philips Exeter Academy and Andover; and when someone is making a list of Eton, Harrow, Winchester and says “Andover and Exeter”, I am definitely thinking the person meant Philips Exeter Academy. And the Andover is the US school, not the UK town.

I just decided to add that the Exeter University in the UK also attracts a very high number of privately educated students from schools like Eton, Harrow, Winchester etc. but yet that does not make it prestigious.

If I may buttress my points a bit more, since you have seen a different perspective:

  1. St. Andrews is LEAPS and BOUNDS above all of these unis except Oxbridge.

I would disagree based on posts #16, #17, #84, #99.

I just don’t see its achievements or reputation, in regards to alumni quality and staff work, being that high for it to be above some other prestigious unis.

  1. St Andrews is known as the uni that everyone wants to go to if they don’t get into Oxbridge.

I would disagree based on posts #34, #84, #92, #101, #102.

Given that data exist from Oxbridge students themselves about which universities they see as peer to Oxbridge.

And we can indirectly assess the anxiety and excitement people have for getting offers from certain universties, this assertion is not strong. St Andrews is consistently outside the Top 7 for this.

  1. Literally anybody of the upper class would have their eyes light up if someone they knew said they would be attending St. Andrews.

This has an element of truth, but some other prestigious universities would solicit the same reaction too or even stronger one. So, it is not a sufficient point to make St Andrews No 3.

Post #84 will also support this.

I think St Andrews is a Top 10 UK university. But Top 3? I would not buy that.

The only candidates for the 3rd spot after Oxbridge are LSE, Imperial and UCL.

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109

Watching this clip about Boris’ life: The life and lies of Boris Johnson - YouTube

My arguments about Boris and the deep Classicism in the UK in post #25 could not be better backed up.

If he had not gone to Eton and Oxford, making him a firm member of the aristocracy, there is no way a man of his reputation will even smell a position in the cabinet, talk less of Prime Minister.

You don’t go to a local state-funded community school, then progressing to University of Derby, and you will be allowed to recover from these much public gaffes and still end up being appointed as a Director at any UK Quango.