<p>3togo, he certainly is a bright guy. No doubt about it. But I find the ethical oversights at USC very, very problematic. If he is a college student, playing college football, he should be taking college classes. Reputable programs insist on the athletes enrolling in graduate school or persuing a double major. It's really an unfair situation to call him a college athlete without the burdens of classwork & exams that real students he competed against had to juggle with the athletic demands.</p>
<p>
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No doubt about it. But I find the ethical oversights at USC very, very problematic.
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</p>
<p>...spoken like a true ND fan! :)</p>
<p>
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...spoken like a true ND fan!
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LOL! Yes, the resentment goes back to OJ. But I'm really willing to soften my view....if only USC would cooperate & run a clean program.</p>
<p>I wish i was there to watch Stanford beat USC</p>
<p>"You really can't be serious about Willingham's race having anything to do with his firing, can you?"</p>
<p>Sure can, it is interesting to see Charlie and Ty pretty much have the same records after the same time. And you can pull all the wonderful people notre dame has out of your hat. How many of those wonderful people contribute millions to the program? The sentiment is shared in the sporting community about how quick they pulled the trigger on Ty, yet haven't done the same with Charlie. The dame is another SC or Bama or where ever the boosters provide enough money to influence the school. </p>
<p>It's Ok, it even happened at the UW, where Jim Lambright got fired and never even had a losing season. He ticked off some boosters who threatened to withhold money for stadium improvements. Jim L, was a husky pruple and gold with 30 plus years in the organization. </p>
<p>Oh, and by the way, why is Ty W. "lazy" ? You're probably the first person to put that label on him. As I said, I have no reason to love the huskies and their stupid med school, but Ty seems to be the real deal of the ideals "we" say we want in a coach. I think as this season plays out for the golden dome and the dame ends up with a terrible record, the administration is in a lose lose situation... people will want charlie gone and others will worry if charlie goes, will the dame just be another bama? </p>
<p>It's great to be loyal, but don't be silly.</p>
<p>Opie, you really have no idea about the ND situation. ND, fortunately, has more boosters for academic standards than those calling for lowering the standards and admitting junior college transfers, like Willingham at Washington. I'm glad you like him. You can keep him. He's laughing all the way to the bank after his ND contract payout. Maybe Bob Davie can join up as an assistant -- another ineffective recruiter. Davie was a terrible coach who blamed his bad record on ND's academic standards. Not a ND man at all. Ty was known to be a lazy recruiter but an avid golfer. Recruits often were confused about his blase attitude & extremely late start in beginning the recruiting process. </p>
<p>Yes, plenty of ND boosters don't like Weis. I haven't been thrilled with some of his playcalling & I think some of his practice philosophy doesn't exactly translate from pros to college. His contract was extended because the NFL was sniffing around, and ND wanted to set up a stable coaching staff & demonstrate to recruits that they had continuity after the problems of the last two coaches. That's not silly. THat's good management.</p>
<p>ND will never be another Alabama.</p>
<p>"ND will never be another Alabama."</p>
<p>we'll see after this season.. won't we? ;) </p>
<p>As far as Ty and the situation then and now, it's not like I am the only one thinking that way... The whole treatment of ty is a big reason they have stepped up behind charlie, to not create the revolving door bama has. Three years, and of that only one losing season is grounds for dismissal? </p>
<p>The problem though is the more they stand behind charlie and his loses, the worse they look about Ty. They are in a lose lose situation until they come out and admit they jumped the gun and should have given Ty five years and they are trying not to repeat themselves with charlie. </p>
<p>The question of color has been raised by many football people. It is amazing that roughly of half of the people playing a sport, only 10% of those people can coach it? The easiest way for the dome to clear the air is simply state they should have given ty more time and made a mistake in firing him after 3 seasons. Besides, charlies first two years were accomplished with ty's players. the guys messing up now are charlies.</p>
<p>Here is a link on Boston College's (ranked 4th) superior graduation rate.<br>
<a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/news;_ylt=AqO2eHPQOcELLx6zoJkJ8D0cvrYF?slug=dw-bostoncollege101007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns%5B/url%5D">http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/news;_ylt=AqO2eHPQOcELLx6zoJkJ8D0cvrYF?slug=dw-bostoncollege101007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns</a></p>
<p>I must agree Opie, to suggest race didn't play a part in Ty Willingham's firing is flat out crazy. But there are other coaches who've been fired over the last few years that absolutely had noooo reason to get fired, white and black.</p>
<p>Here are some other notorious firings over the last few years. </p>
<p>Marty Schottenheimer, SD Chargers: Man, do you think they wish they had old Marty right now?</p>
<p>Frank Solich, Nebraska Cornhuskers: My beloved Huskers. Bill Callahan took a team to a Super Bowl but can't take my team to the Big 12 Championship. Plus, Nebraska would kill for Solich and his 9-3 teams right now. </p>
<p>Byron Scott, NJ Nets: Was he black? Yes. Was that the main reason he got fired? Who knows? Have they been to another finals since he got fired? Not even close.</p>
<p>Jimmie Johnson, Cowboys: That was some years back and they'd won Super Bowls with him, but at least they won again under Barry Switzer, with all Jimmie's players. </p>
<p>Ray Rhodes, Eagles & Packers: They just never gave Ray a chance. I think he got fired after one year with the Packers and he'd done great with the Eagles. I think both firings were definitely racially motivated.</p>
<p>Tony Dungy, TB Buccaneers: Jon Gruden won the SB with Tony's players. Then he inherited Peyton...</p>
<p>Mike Davis, Indiana Hoosiers: He was destined to fail after Bobby Knight (and went to the finals with Bobby's players). Definitely racially motivated.</p>
<p>"Marty Schottenheimer, SD Chargers: Man, do you think they wish they had old Marty right now"</p>
<p>Marty's playoff record may be terrible, but I think San Diego may learn it's still better to get there, than watch it on TV. You have to be good enough to make the playoffs, to lose the playoffs.</p>
<p>Where Ty ended up also fired longtime coach and huskie Jim Lambright a few years back. They never gave him a chance to even have a losing season. But when you want box seats and don't think the coach is friendly enough to the boosters, something's gotta give. Bye Jim, thanks for the 30 years.</p>
<p>Orangelights,</p>
<p>And to think that Jagodinski is doing it with Tom O'Brien's players. ;-)</p>
<p>More seriously, I expect that over the next 4 years there will be a sea change in college sports due to changes in NCAA rules. If your graduation rate is not high enough you will lose scholarships. That will favor schools with high graduation rates, i.e. Stanford, BC, ND, Duke, Northwestern, etc.</p>
<p>StickerShock and others have posted about Matt Leinart only taking ballroom dancing his senior year at USC. While true I think it was only one of the classes he took at USC that year and he had fulfilled the other requirements required.</p>
<p>ND runs a very respectable program but they admit freshman early so they can get a head start on college life . . . and their classwork. The Ivy league schools don't take junior college transfers but they do ask students to take an additional year at prep school first. Check most any highly ranked Division 1 hockey program and you will see lots of students who followed this path.</p>
<p>My point is that every school does it differently.</p>
<p>
[quote]
3togo, he certainly is a bright guy. No doubt about it. But I find the ethical oversights at USC very, very problematic. If he is a college student, playing college football, he should be taking college classes. Reputable programs insist on the athletes enrolling in graduate school or persuing a double major. It's really an unfair situation to call him a college athlete without the burdens of classwork & exams that real students he competed against had to juggle with the athletic demands.
[/quote]
This is a bit of a rathole but an interesting one ... to me the best solution is not obvious. </p>
<p>First, I have no idea what the NCAA rules are about class credits needed to play ... I know the NCAA has (increasingly stringent) rules about progress towards graduation to play ... I have to assume ML followed the NCAA rules and since he was basically a year ahead in school it was OK to take only one course and still play.</p>
<p>I hear your complaint that someone playing should take something resembling a normal course load ... and frankly I agree with the thought ... but apparently it is not a NCAA requirement. ML knew he was going to the NFL so if he started a grad program and took courses in the fall it certainly would have increased his workload in the fall ... but his joining the grad program would have been a bit of sham because he would have known, in the short term, he would only be in the program for a term and then drop out. Not clear that is any more "clean" academically then taking a light course load. A better solution might be to meet a higher NCAA min course load in season (maybe 3 courses) and graduate mid-year with extra courses taken as an undergrad.</p>
<p>Being a GREAT athlete and being a GOOD STUDENT are not two mutually exclusive things. Ask John Elway: finished second in the Heisman; graduated with a degree in Economics (not exactly a cupcake major) from Stanford; made it to FIVE SUPERBOWLS and won TWO; and was inducted to the Hall of Fame.</p>
<p>Universities really need to push their student-athlete academically and make sure that they have a decent education. Football is not a game of tag, if you get seriously injured, then you are done for. These schools owe it to their athletes to educate and graduate them. They are human beings too, so shouldn't we be treating them like one?</p>
<p>There are a bunch of schools that don't compromise much in the way of academics in order to field competitive teams. It used to be these schools could run with the football factories but now I wonder....Navy, Army, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Stanford, BYU, BC, Duke--all excellent academic schools and all with the exception of ND (until recently) are inconsistent or doormat Division I schools. </p>
<p>They should form their own conference and level the playing field.</p>
<p>I don't know what happened with Willingham at ND, but I do know he has done an excellent job at the UW. He's a classy guy and he has cleaned up the mess left by NuWeasel. This is the first time since the '80s I don't hear whiny excuses when the Huskies drop a game.</p>
<p>ND is 1-6 and UW is 2-4 now, so not much to choose between them. But the counter to the point that ND is now having to play (poorly) with younger players recruited by Weis is that his initial success at ND was accomplished with Willingham's recruits.</p>
<p>Mombot, BC is perenially pretty good. A lot of people didn't give them a prayer after they decided to leave the Big East, but look at them now. 6-0, off to their best start in 60 years, and ranked #4 in the country. When tomorrow's poll comes out, they should be even higher since LSU just fell.</p>
<p>However, I doubt their players are being held to the same standards as the rest of the student body.</p>
<p>"ND is 1-6 and UW is 2-4 now"</p>
<p>One thing to keep in mind is the huskies were in the dumps before TW got there. Was ND that bad when Charlie took over? At the UW, they know it is getting better each time out, that is why no rumblings...yet..</p>
<p>They've got a RS freshman QB that will probably be a heisman nominee in a couple years. Unfortunately they also have a RB who is the spitting style of Shawn Alexander for the Seahawks. Has a ton of speed and ability, but you only see it every third or fourth time he touches the ball. The other three, I'm faster. ;) </p>
<p>What's killed the UW all season is the 3rd quarter. It's like the defense hits the buffet line at half. ASU had tds from 57 and 65 yards running lastnight between three plays in the third. It was over then. For 30 minutes the huskies have been as good as many of the top ten teams they faced. The "other" 30? well...;)</p>
<p>I think the person who claimed all those coaches were fired because of their race is out of line. How can you say willingham, for example, deserved to keep his job? Also I think leinart was justified in only taking that class. if anyone on this forum would do anything different in his situation when he knows hes getting millions they're crazy.</p>
<p>Sheldon--you may be right...I remember BC sort of in and out of the "show," but I am on the left coast so we don't hear much about east coast football.</p>
<p>D. is in freshman seminar-a class of 18 people--with the ND freshman QB and she may be being overly critical, but it is her impression that he is not up to snuff in terms of scholarship at ND. I suggested to her that the poor kid just wishes he was somewhere, anywhere else on the planet and to cut him a break.</p>