If a kid really likes an LAC that isn’t ABET accredited and isn’t 100% sure of engineering as a career path, would getting a bachelors degree at the LAC with a math or pre engineering major (moving on to grad school to pursue a masters in engineering) be a good route to take? What would be the downside to this path, rather than say going straight into the ABET accredited state flagship with an engineering program?
I’m not familiar with pre-engineering degrees but my concern would be money… but also exposure to the world of engineers. Going that path it might be hard for the student to figure out if engineering is actually for them. They won’t be working with a group of dedicated future engineers, doing research for engineering professors, taking engineering classes or hearing from professionals in the field about careers. They won’t be getting engineering internships or co-ops over the summers because those will go to the engineering kids. So after 4 years of BA/BS work… how will they know if they actually want to go into engineering? The first year or so of engineering is considered a weed-out time in many programs - sometimes that’s interpreted as weeding out through excessive amounts of work but it’s also weeding out the students who figure out they’d really rather do something else! I’m not sure how you’d get that reality check going the LAC route.
Perhaps consider some LACs that offer engineering - a few offhand would be Lafayette, Bucknell, and Union.
Most lac pre engineering programs that I have seen are connected to a university offering engineering. Usually 3/2 programs. 3 at lac and 2 at engineering school. Usually there is a “high” GPA to achieve to move on to engineering. Keep in mind that it is not easy to achieve. Weed out classes and such are demanding and hard. It’s much better to go into a engineering program and if you decide it’s not for you then move on to something else. Usually the first year curriculum for regular population students and engineering students are about the same as students need to take math, science, English etc. If after a year he’s not feeling it then there is no loss. Most engineering program you don’t officially declare your major till after sophomore year so actually he has two years to decide. That should be plenty enough time to get a feel if this is something he wants to do.
If not ABET and it’s not like Cal Tech then no. Many companies won’t hire engineers that don’t have ABET if their fields require it.
But why Lacs at all. There are many really good small engineering programs /schools to give the lac feel.
Here are many of them https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-overall
My nephew just finished a one year MS in engineering (after a BS). The BS was very structured and had few electives; civil engineers took these classes, mechanical took those classes, all engineers too the math sequence. the MS was much more open and my nephew commented that those who didn’t have an BS engineering degree were more limited in what they could take. Many hadn’t had the materials classes (fluids, concrete) needed as a pre-req for a class so had to take something else (or even the BS level course).
It shouldn’t be a problem going to a LAC and then onto a masters at a university that offers grad degrees in engineering. I would look at the requirements that the university has for being accepted into there grad program. Posters just can’t seem to get past the ABET accreditation which is entirely dependent on the field. Most LACs won’t offer an engineering program where ABET is considered important (e.g. civil engineering)
This is actually a perfectly fine way to go, especially if the major is physics (or at least math), and your daughter uses her summers well (internships / REU’s). I agree with @Knowsstuff that 3+2 programs don’t have a great success rate, for lots of reasons. For example, often they don’t want to leave their LAC, and sometimes they get info about the partner program that puts them of (one of my collegekids had planned to follow that path until she heard the reports from students ahead of her on how it was going for the women in the +2 college). She is now on an applied physics/mat sci PhD path, which is based in the Engineering school, and is TAing for (and working with) Masters engineering students. She has quite a few who came from regular LACs, and they don’t seem to be suffering any more than the others!
edit: forgot you asked about major benefits: if not sure about engineering it gives time to figure that out, and for mine at least she had a lot more fun during undergrad!
Having vetted all three and actually visited two, Bucknell and Lafayette, the idea of the LAC engineer is a myth. Engineers at these schools take no more arts, history and social science than they do at any other regular ABET accredited program. Travel abroad is no easier either. We were told when seeking this unicorn, that “engineers are different,” meaning they did not get the benefits the other majors got because their curriculum was so rigid.
It would however be a way to bail to a non-engineering program in a small LAC environment if that’s the environment your student absolutely wanted. University of Portland, Gonzaga, Santa Clara, and many others would fit that bill.
This is true with a HUGE caveat. Employers are happy to overlook non-ABET accredited degrees from long established powerhouses like Stanford and Caltech, with the understanding that they are ahead of the curve. A non-ABET degree from an unknown university though, that has a fledgling program or that failed to get accredited will have very little cachet.
@eyemgh I mention these schools because some students simply prefer the smaller, more intimate environment that LACs offer. And FWIW my D’s engineering friends from Lafayette were able to double major in a humanities subject with no issue and took advantage of study abroad programs specifically designed to fit into the engineering curriculum.
@happy1, that’s good news. That didn’t exist when we visited 5 years ago.
As for doubling in a humanities, there are advantages, but a substantial down side. They will enter the job market competing against students with much deeper engineering knowledge. It is a zero sum game. Every extra humanities class taken to satisfy a double is an engineering class not taken.
@eyemgh I don’t know enough but from what I could tell the engineers from these schools have no issue getting good jobs or getting into top grad programs. In any event the OP hopefully now has more information and can explore options that work for him/her.
Thank you everyone! So much helpful information and insight—gives us a lot to think about and consider. Thankfully we have plenty of time, as my son is a rising sophomore. He seems drawn to LAC’s (has 2 older sisters and has been along for the ride on many college tours) but who knows, that could change in a couple of years. If anyone out there has first hand experience with getting a BS at an LAC and masters in engineering I’d love to hear about your experience. Did you truly feel less prepared than your peers? Were you afforded less opportunities for internships?
Does he like the liberal arts aspect per se, or the size? There are some pretty cool small engineering programs like WPI, Harvey Mudd and Olin.
He is drawn to the smaller size, but I am drawn to the idea that he would have other options if he changed his mind on a major. Distance from home is also a consideration (Not a deal breaker, but under 4 hours would be a plus) and all of the smaller schools mentioned are 6+ hours away. Not awful, but opening options up to any LAC would help with that concern.
This seems like just procrastinating on the decision in a particularly costly way. My kid attended an engineering summer camp & joined the robotics team in HS - both gave her some flavor of engineering, and helped her decide it WASN’T for her. It would be better for him to attend a school where he can start in engineering, and easily switch majors if it isn’t for him. Why pay for 6 years of college?
It’s good to start the learning process, and it’s nice that that you’ll have lots of time to sort through options. After your son starts taking more upperclassman math/science classes (especially calc and physics), he’ll have a better feel for whether engineering is likely a good fit.
A master’s degree program in engineering after a non-engineering bachelor’s degree would likely mean having to take additional upper level undergraduate engineering courses to “catch up” to the expected level for master’s level study. Of course, there would be extra cost involved.
Working at some big engineering companies, I’ve known a few engineers who went the LAC route. Most of the ones that followed with an immediate MS or PhD were fine (our most senior and respected engineer was physics all the way through PhD!), but the ones with just the BS all had problems getting positions in the technical groups and all wound up in areas where a technical degree was needed but not actually used - business development, competitive intelligence, etc.
They all had good careers and had a relatively high proportion move into management roles in their groups but none worked in the core technical roles that define engineering. The issue was that they lacked the kind of specialized coursework and experience needed.
It is important to balance the “college experience” with an understanding that it is a stepping stone to a career. Leaving an LAC with a BS and trying to work immediately as an engineer presents a lot of obstacles.