LACs for ST(E)M majors?

<p>GraniteStateMom, that was my oldest. He did eventually get something together and then recycled it for all his applications. I highly recommended getting your kid to apply early somewhere so that he’ll have a forced deadline. Remember that the essay doesn’t have to be about accomplishments - it’s supposed to give insight into what you are like, how you think. My kids both have a sort of self-deprecating sense of humor that they were able to pull off pretty well. My younger son wrote about what he learned from origami - something he started doing so as not to fall asleep in AP Bio.</p>

<p>^^^That is definitely the plan - EA to just about every school that has it. There will be no ED apps since comparing packages will likely be important. No SCEA either since that will eliminate EA to many other good options. Deadlines are key for my son!</p>

<p>poeme,</p>

<p>You’re assuming things that are not necessarily in evidence. FYI, while teaching is factored much more heavily in tenure decisions at LACs, there is a research requirement. If a tenure track Professor at an LAC…especially those in the top 50 aren’t producing any/enough research…they won’t get tenure. </p>

<p>Saw this happen at my own LAC and knew of many others at the LACs of other friends/HS classmates…many of which prompted student protests to no avail. </p>

<p>While research requirements are lower than those of Research I universities like UPenn, they do exist and require maintaining contacts with other researchers/scholars in the field. </p>

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<p>If that were the case, explain the fact LACs like Oberlin send most STEM students who go on for further education into STEM PhD programs…including elite places at MIT(Physics), Cornell(Chem) and Harvard (Bio). </p>

<p>From the above, you don’t sound very informed about the true state of how academic departments at LACs…especially those in the top 50 are connected to other scholars in their fields.</p>

<p>“He doesn’t like talking about himself and takes being humble about accomplishments” - I’ve got two kids like that. After reading CC threads for a few years, it seems to be a fairly common trait. So try not to fret too much. </p>

<p>DS had excellent credentials and chance of scholarships, so I did offer him college coaching services. He turned it down. But he did accept hired help on essays. Mostly the help was just for scheduling and on setting topics and tone. Still it was nice for him to have a non-parent adult reading his drafts. Often teachers or GC are willing to do same thing.</p>

<p>From the Reed College website, a listing of top Ph.D. program placement by school:
[REED</a> COLLEGE PHD PRODUCTIVITY](<a href=“http://www.reed.edu/ir/phd.html]REED”>Doctoral Degree Productivity - Institutional Research - Reed College)</p>

<p>Reed does not provide merit aid, but does have very need based aid.</p>

<p>Another vote for Lafayette. DD2 is a biochem major doing NSF funded research. Lots of quality opportunities available. Beginning with the class of 2018, merit aid opportunities increase with the introduction of the Marquis Fellowship ($40k/year) and the Marquis Scholarship ($24k/yr).</p>

<p>[Lafayette</a> Scholarships · Tuition & Aid · Lafayette College](<a href=“http://finaid.lafayette.edu/financing-your-education/types-of-financial-aid/scholarships/]Lafayette”>http://finaid.lafayette.edu/financing-your-education/types-of-financial-aid/scholarships/)</p>

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<p>Huh? It seems like the “open curriculum” type schools with no breadth requirements that do exist are mainly LACs (other than Brown). Meanwhile, the best known STEM-focused schools like MIT, Caltech, and Harvey Mudd have relatively heavy humanities and social studies breadth requirements.</p>

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<p>Not all LACs are completely open curriculum like Brown. My LAC had some distribution requirements popularly known as 9-9-9*. 9 credits in social sciences, 9 in the humanities, and 9 in the natural/technical sciences. There were also requirements for quantitative, writing, and cultural diversity requirements. </p>

<p>Wellesley has a foreign language and lab science requirements on top of distribution and other requirements as seen here:</p>

<p>[Distribution</a> Requirements | Wellesley College](<a href=“http://www.wellesley.edu/esp/entering/academics/distribution_requirements]Distribution”>Distribution Requirements | Wellesley College)</p>

<p>Swarthmore also doesn’t strike me as an “open curriculum” school:</p>

<p>[Swarthmore</a> College :: Advising Handbook :: Requirements](<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/student-life/academic-advising-and-support/advising-handbook/requirements.xml]Swarthmore”>Requirements :: Advising Handbook :: Swarthmore College)</p>

<ul>
<li>We had it well before a certain presidential primary candidate who owned a pizza chain ripped it off to market his political plan.</li>
</ul>

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<p>While that is true, that does not contradict the point that most well known open curriculum schools are LACs like Amherst or Evergreen State.</p>

<p>Cobrat, my knowledge of research at LACs comes from speaking with students at conferences and at two REUs. Several of these students are at top 50 LACs. From what I have heard, the research professors do at top 50 LACs in no way compares to the research done at top 50 universities. There are many fewer topics to choose from and much less emphasis on publishing. Even if LAC professors have some connections, I would argue university professors have many more. For example, I made a list of potential thesis advisors for graduate school and showed it to one of the professors in my department. He knew of everyone on the list and he knew most personally to some extent. When I spoke with another student from an LAC, she said her advisor only knew people at a few places.
You may argue that undergrads at research universities don’t have access to most of the research there anyway so it I better to choose a small LAC with a tight knit community. I completely disagree with this. From my experience at a large university, I know several undergrads who are incredibly successful and advanced. Many have first author papers in top journals in their field. Even though professors have more research responsibilities, most are also dedicated to teaching and are more than willing to individually mentor students. If one wants to attend grad school, one should be able to learn independently. In this respect, it is better to go to the place with more opportunities than a place focused on undergrad education because this should be something one can find on their own at a larger school.</p>

<p>I’d like to second Poeme. It’s been my experience too that professors at LACs are overall less connected and engage in less “respected” research than their peers at the better research universities. My own experience has been in math and computer science, but I would guess that this extends to the lab sciences as well - especially since cutting-edge science research often requires extensive lab facilities that LACs simply don’t have. </p>

<p>Some LACs try to compensate by encouraging their students to get engaged off campus. Bryn Mawr and Haverford, for example, provide summer funding for off-campus research. It’s been my experience that the stronger grad school-bound science majors at LACs usually spend 1-2 summers elsewhere, whereas students at stronger research universities more often spend the summers at their own institution. There are pros and cons to both approaches. One provides a wider range of experiences; the other allows for a more meaningful involvement in a single “big” project. </p>

<p>It’s hard to argue that one scenario is necessarily better than the other, but they are certainly different.</p>

<p>S1 graduated from Swarthmore with a lab science degree and is now a year away from getting his PhD in that same lab science from MIT. While at Swarthmore,he did a REU at Harvard one summer, but REU’s are not uncommon. He also did research at Swarthmore another summer which led to his invitation to a national conference attended mainly by grad students; he was one of the few undergrads there. His relationships with profs at Swarthmore helped him decide where to apply to grad school. There are also profs at Swarthmore with national reputations in their field which facilitated his grad school admissions.</p>

<p>There are differences between LACs and large research universities, but you can get to good grad schools in STEM fields from either one.</p>

<p>Be sure to consider St Olaf in Northfield, MN - same pretty town as Carleton College. W/OP’s stats, student is likely to receive very generous merit aid. School size is ideal, campus is beautiful, science building is truly stunning, and math/science programs are well-regarded. I think that Olaf would be ideal fit for OP’s criteria.</p>

<p>The child of our closest friends recently graduated from Carleton. Going into the college application process, she was primarily interested in STEM fields, including math, but she also had non-STEM interests. Had she gotten into MIT or Stanford, she certainly would have gone there, but she didn’t. In the end, she chose Carleton over (a) a research university with a tippy-top-ranked program in her main field of interest, but where she would have difficulty pursuing non-STEM interests, (b) an Ivy-type university (other than HYP), and (c) a full-tuition merit scholarship to a good public-university engineering school. </p>

<p>It was something of a risk, but it worked out sensationally well, at least for her. She got exactly the job she would have described as her dream job going in to college (and interned there before her senior year). It is a cutting-edge tech job; co-workers at her level include people coming out of MIT, Harvard, Princeton, Brown. She was funded to do summer research at a research university and had a great experience with that, including continuing to work with those researchers from her LAC. She also had a non-STEM second major and a quarter abroad in which she did nothing STEM-ish at all.</p>

<p>The LAC route isn’t necessarily for everybody, and, yes, there are tradeoffs. My point is that it CAN work out perfectly, and has . . . . not only for this kid, bur for several others I have seen over the past few years as well.</p>

<p>My S and I went to a Carleton reception when he was a senior in HS and we met two students doing physics PhDs at Princeton who had gone to Carleton for undergrad. I think it is particularly strong in physics. It’s also the alma mater of Congressman Rush Holt, who was the head of the Princeton Plasma Physics lab before he went into politics. (Bumper sticker: My Congressman IS a Rocket Scientist!)</p>

<p>How about LAC-lite schools like Emory, Tulane, or really-not-a-LAC but nice atmosphere like CWRU?</p>

<p>It’s all about fit and preferences. I certainly understand the appeal of Universities, but it’s not the best choice for everybody. </p>

<p>DS attends Olin. It’s not really an LAC, but certainly it is small (actually teeny) undergrad-oriented engineering college. The Olin students that head to grad school seem to get admitted to competitive grad schools despite not having had University undergrad opportunities. </p>

<p>DS was attracted by Olin’s project-oriented learning, not research. But already in the first 2 years he has done a fair amount, including a summer campus research job after freshman year. So far three different topics/profs… and two different conferences. One of the conference papers was a spin-off from a class project.</p>

<p>I would not recommend Emory for a student interested in math or physics. Because of the proximity to Georgia Tech, its harder sciences (with the exception of chemistry) tends to be weaker than the overall reputation would suggest.</p>

<p>I was recently looking at Georgia Tech’s math program, and it seems like they don’t offer a major in pure math - just applied math and discrete math. It seems like someone interested in pure math might be better off at Emory.</p>

<p>I recommend looking at summer projects that LAC faculty direct with undergraduate student involvement. As a career scientist raised in a research university setting, I have been very impressed by the research carried out by scientists at St. Olaf (I have looked most closely there, as DD is a non-STEM student). Much of the research is funded by peer-reviewed competitive agencies, like NSF, and a lot of it pertains to local and useful questions. I would be proud to work alongside LAC professors doing their style of relevant, accessible work!</p>

<p>Here’s the link to Summer 2013 research at St. Olaf:
<a href=“http://wp.stolaf.edu/curi/2013-summer-projects/[/url]”>http://wp.stolaf.edu/curi/2013-summer-projects/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Also, lots of robotics work being done and great opportunities/collaborations with Mayo Clinic. </p>

<p>Honestly, I have been slow to appreciate the caliber of research that goes on at LAC’s (maybe not the highest caliber everywhere, but some LAC’s are top-notch!). I have changed my mind and no longer think research universities are the be-all and end-all for undergraduate STEM majors. Many science jobs require carefully thought out and clear writing (and lots of it). I think LAC’s do a much better job preparing students for these key aspects of a science career (I.e. thinking and writing).</p>