yeah, I get the idea. But I’m a simple guy. What this is really saying is, ‘attend a LAC that allows you to take non-LAC courses.’ I personally struggle with that concept.
Both. But it wasn’t so much an objection as an observation that, if interests change, and they do for the majority of kids, LACs just have limited curricular offerings.
I know that Bucknell, Richmond & Trinity offer business, but I was not aware that “most” other LACs also offer so-called vocational majors. If so, I am mistaken and I will retract my observation.
Love Ithaca and Cornell. But is is about a non-LAC as you can get in the realm of private colleges.
Us too. D attended a college that had a strict Core curriculum, with required courses in all disciplines.
Many LAC students go abroad for Junior year. Many state the reason for this is they are just tired of looking at the same faces, professors, food, social activities and want more variety. Some go to much bigger universities in much bigger cities.
My kids looked at a few LAC and the only ones they really considered were the those part of a consortium, as otherwise the LACs were just too small.
“If someone comes from more limited means, there is good reason to be career focused. Outside CC, the overwhelming number of students to local or semi-local schools and are trying to create an opportunity to have a better life. I support the goal of a liberal arts education but understand the motivation of one worried about a good job after college. One also doesn’t have to attend an LAC to get a liberal arts education.”
I’d argue that students at LACs are VERY career focused as well. I think it is a misunderstanding of LACs, their educational experience, and the labor/employment market to think it doesn’t prepare students for excellent careers. Majors don’t need to be pre-professional to result in good job and career prospects. TONS of jobs out there in many fields. You don’t need to be a nurse, engineer, or business major to find one. You don’t need to be a business major to work in business.
“Students who enter college with large numbers of AP/IB credits may be ready to take graduate-level courses by senior year or even junior year, and some want to do this. But at an LAC, they’re typically not available.”
At the better known LACs with which I am familiar, any student, including those with AP/IB credits, will feel challenged and have sufficient courses to take at these schools. AP/IB curriculum will only replace one or 2 entry level classes leaving plenty of advanced course offerings.
“Many LAC students go abroad for Junior year. Many state the reason for this is they are just tired of looking at the same faces, professors, food, social activities and want more variety”
Knowing many LAC students who have studied abroad, they are doing so for the merits of the study abroad programs and the experience itself, not as an escape from their schools and campuses. I think students at LACs understand the merits of the study abroad experience and therefore are more likely to pursue it. Additionally, LACs are supportive of the experience, make it easy to do so - financially and administratively - regardless of major.
I agree with everything you said but that is a separate issue from my point. A poster commented about the demise of a liberal arts education in and of itself compared to career prep. For a HS student from lower middle class or below looking to use college to increase earning potential, it is natural to think of preparing for a career, not the inherent value of an education. Similarly, that student is going to migrate to engineering, medical fields, etc.
I agree it’s a misunderstanding, but not one that will go away soon.
I greatly oppose choosing a career simply for the earning potential but I understand why the average college student is concerned about employment post college.
Geography also plays a huge role in this argument over LACs. I grew up in the Deep South. I’ve lived in seven states across the country now. The further one gets from the Northeast, the less awareness there is going to be for LACs, particularly name brand ones. I’m not against LACs or a liberal arts education, but it is a steep hill to climb to sell them to the average student.
I chose to go to a state flagship over a regional Christian LAC, primarily because of the flexibility to change majors with exponentially more course offerings. It was the right decision for me and will remain the right decision for many others. Perhaps this is off thread, but LACs and large research universities are equally viable. Neither is a good fit for everyone.
“For a HS student from lower middle class or below looking to use college to increase earning potential”
Well, obviously if a student wants engineering, than choose a school with engineering (which actually includes some fine LACs!), or nursing program for a wannabe nurse. As far as prep for medical school, LACs are great places to be. And many LACs have very good CS programs as well. However, you don’t need these majors for career and I’d argue that LACs can be very wise choices for lower income students because they offer high graduation rates, often programs to help less traditional students to be successful, more individualized attention, etc. all which help with a successful college experience and a solid start to a career. They might not be aware of this stuff, but it is there. Look at all the LACs that are part of Questbridge for example.
But, yes, for a truly AVERAGE student, not the CC self-selecting bunch, most will go to a public school near their home or with a a few hours from it. But that hasn’t changed. I’d argue it has always been that way. It’s nothing new.
OP here. I appreciate that everyone has such interesting perspectives. To answer some of the questions that have come up, I will say that we are from the Northeast, in a suburb of NYC. So what I have noticed locally certainly has nothing to do with region having few liberal arts colleges. But what’s funny is that a lot of the kids and parents I speak to haven’t even heard of the liberal arts schools in the Northeast. Her high school is very small, about 600 students total, so even the smaller colleges have more students. It does seem that a lot of the parents I speak to seem confused by the idea of pursuing an education that isn’t immediately focused on a certain career path.
I absolutely understand the financial issue though. It makes a lot more sense to go to an in-state public university than any private institution when money is an issue, unless financial aid and/or merit aid eliminates the issue entirely.
@doschicos: “Well, obviously if a student wants engineering, than choose a school with engineering (which actually includes some fine LACs!)”
Only a handful of LACs have their own engineering programs (as opposed to 3-2 relationships, which most kids don’t complete).
“I’d argue that LACs can be very wise choices for lower income students because they offer high graduation rates.”
Depends on the LAC. I know that on CC, many people focus on the tippy-tops at the exclusion of all else, but just as not all RUs are tippy-top, neither are all LACs.
@IBviolamom, I believe the lack of knowledge is due to the ignorance of the guidance counselors. Until I found CC, I never heard of the NESCAC Schools and still most of my friends and almost no one in philly has either. The Elite LACs have Economics as a major that puts their students in top business type jobs with firms on Wall street etc.
As a middle class family, tuition is actually equal to or less at a NESCAC school than it would be at a state school like TCNJ due to financial aid. Some would argue, that going to a small school in a remote region, allows for a closeness and an opportunity to live in a bubble that will not be available to most going forward where most of us will live and work in a big city. To each his or her own but I would not say that the top LACs are dwindling in enrollment. They seem to be as difficult to gain admission as ever and their students seem to be gainfully employed.
Ten years ago, the college list at my school was full of East Coast LACs. We had kids headed to certain schools like Hamilton and Colgate for many years running. But s couple years ago the pattern changed and we now see more kids venturing south and west and to more universities vs LACS. Not sure why. But sometimes certain schools get ‘hot’ with certain high schools.
As a LAC grad I have long recommended LACs due to the small class sizes, instruction by profs only, and diverse, inventive curricula and student bodies. I have had second thoughts the last few years as tuitions have gone north of 60K/year and too many reports of “snowflake culture” closed-mindedness such as took place at Middlebury. If LACs become echo-chamber mono-cultures, I may recommend to my own kids (a few years down the road) that they consider the state schools. I am kind of surprised and saddened to be typing this.
One thing that sets apart my daughter’s LAC is its location in the Twin Cities as opposed to a rural area like the majority of LACs. I imagine - and I have heard - that this helps a great deal when it comes to offering students real-world experiences through internships during the actual school year. Access to a city should counter that “summer camp” feeling we got at most of the other LACs we visited. I’m hoping that this also makes it a little less “snowflakey” too!
@FallGirl - I agree about the VA schools. A little over half of my kid’s class of 500 stayed in state. About 10% went to LACs (with about half of them going to William and Mary). The rest of the kids scattered to public and private schools all over the country. Plenty of kids apply to LACs, they just don’t end up going.
^ W&M is a liberal arts university, like Dartmouth, where, despite offering graduate programs, most of the focus is on undergrads.
In some ways, “LAC” is more of a marketing term now anyway. You now see LACs with a decent number of grad and professional programs still calling themselves a LAC.
My husband and I encouraged our son to look at some small liberal arts colleges because we believe they provide the best undergraduate experience.
His high school has a wall where they post where everyone is going to college. Each high school class has about 300 students. Both last year and this year, he remarked to us that almost nobody had chosen a small liberal arts college. I think people just are not familiar with the names of colleges that do not compete in division one sports on TV or have a hospital affiliated with them! They have not heard of them. Their guidance counselor may not have heard of them.
I went to Williams. One summer when I was working at a camp during college, everyone was impressed that one of the counselors had gone to Yale. The only person who was super-impressed when they heard I went to Williams? You guessed it: the counselor who went to Yale! Only smart people who have researched top colleges have heard of the small liberal arts colleges. The general public has not.
Alas, that does not make small liberal arts colleges any easier to get into! The acceptance rates are getting lower every year while the SAT scores are getting higher. Those “in the know” apply to these colleges in droves.
Also at my son’s school: I don’t know if most people understand the “match” or “target” school concept. A lot of the seniors he knows are going to the local state college because they applied to only Ivy League schools and the state school as their safety… and got into only their safety. Probably no one told them about small liberal arts colleges, just like no one told them about any colleges or universities that might be a little easier to get into than an Ivy and a little harder than Stony Brook. (Stony Brook, of course, is still a great school.)
