<p>As a PhD molecular biologist who has worked in both academia, translational medicine and big pharma and trained dozens of college students/recent grads from the Ivies to the no-names, I honestly do not think the undergraduate institution matters that much providing:
you must learn how to write coherently, succinctly and convincingly
you get involved in ANY kind of research along the way. Back in my day, you paid your dues, washing glassware, pouring agar plates, making simple solutions. Today’s generation thinks every summer intern position should come with a peer-reviewed research paper! Don’t worry about getting any papers; worry about learning how one result tells a researcher what their next experiment should be. Learn how to think as you learn how to do. Don’t be offended at working your way up from the bottom. In the long run, you learn so much more completely if you have paid some housekeeping dues, because everything is done for a purpose and if you don’t learn it now, you probably never will. Work in a lab because you love it, not because it will make you look more competitive. If working in a lab is not for you, look for something that is–look for organizations and think-tanks, for instance. Not everyone who likes biology belongs in a lab, believe me!</p>
<p>Know that ALL research is important, eventually. The life cycle of a moth may seem insignificant to you, but that is your ignorance talking. Biology is filled with so many miracles waiting to be uncovered; do not turn your nose up at them because you think it is not important enough for you to spend your time on. You never know. Some of the most arbitrary, back-water seeming kind of projects have blossomed into Nobel prizes.</p>
<p>Most importantly, pick a school you love. Pick a school that you will make the most of. Getting into graduate school in biology is not difficult, especially if you can write and think analytically. Picking the right advisor and getting out of graduate school (and completing one or two post-docs)–that’s the true challenge!</p>
<p>You guys are amazing (as always). Not sure what D2 would pick, but I wish I was an undergrad so I could apply for the REU called “Mechanobiology of the Bat Wing Microvasculature” The REU list is quite interesting in itself (and might give D some summer options ideas). Some of this info has solidified schools already on her prelminary list (Swarthmore, Haverford, Carleton). A couple of others that might be safeties (Beloit & Lawrence) show up on several of these lists, too, so we will add those. And continue digging into this info and research. Thank you!</p>
<p>* A small LAC may have 10 math (or pick a science) students majoring in math for any given year *
I don’t really know what is small- is 400 graduates out of 1,200 undergrads small?</p>
<p>There were at least 41 graduates in biology in '07, not counting the combined theses or those who didn’t get listed.
[REED</a> COLLEGE | Biology | Thesis Titles](<a href=“http://academic.reed.edu/biology/theses/2007/index.html]REED”>Thesis Titles - Biology Department - Reed College)
they all have to write a thesis etc- so profs are well versed in the prep this takes to get them there- it isn’t a matter of the student having to eke out what they need by trial and error.</p>
<p>not sure why those who have been led to believe brand name universities have to be superior- but there ya go. ;)</p>
<p>“…but somehow I have trouble seeing D2 at a women’s college. She has so little patience for the kind of drama that goes on in a group of all women.”</p>
<p>I just want to take a second to address this, though 2boysima did it pretty well. The concept that women’s colleges must be catty places because women are just naturally geared to tear each other down and cause drama is a myth. It’s a myth perpetuated by a social structure that teaches girls that they should not trust each and compete with each other over stupid things like the attention of boys, and it’s fed by the fact that unlike boys, girls arent’ encouraged to express their frustrations in healthy ways. They are instead encouraged to always be “nice” on the surface, which leads to supressed emotions emerging in really unhealthy ways. That’s what catty behavior is. It’s not the natural tendencies of women. It’s a specific behavioral response to supressed anger and a push to compete for false idols. </p>
<p>I’m not making this up, you can read about it in very respectable scientific texts like “Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Agression in Girls” or the very famous “Reviving Ophelia” or hundreds of other such books. </p>
<p>It’s actually the very things that push girls to be “catty” that women’s colleges seek to erase. At a women’s college, one of the points that is driven home from day 1 is that women succeed or fail together, and that it’s part of your responsibility, as a member of this awesome group of women stretching back over centuries, to help those that come after you advance, as those that went before you are helping you. Women’s colleges are very competitive, but the point is to teach you to compete on the outside, for things that are important, rather than to compete at the college against one another for things like popularity or prestige or a good boyfriend. I’m not saying it’s a paradise of sisterhood, but this is the whole idea behind women’s colleges. </p>
<p>Ask any women’s college grad and they will probably talk about the supportive, tight knit campus community. THey will mention the friendships and bonds they forged from finally being in a place where they were encouraged to trust and confide in other women, rather than see them as rivals. And they’ll say that the awesome thing about being an alum is the network of supportive fellow women who are there to help you get started in your career and help advance you forward toward whatever your goals are (including if those goals are motherhood or being a stay at home mom. Lots of Smith Alum Clubs have moms groups or stay at home moms groups).</p>
<p>So yes, women’s colleges are not for everyone. No, they are not a paradise. But they deserve the right to be seen for what they really are and not be dismissed by some myth that becuase a bunch of women are together there must be hateful words and catty activity going on.</p>
<p>I have nothing against women’s colleges. As I have mentioned in other posts, D1 was accepted to Mt. Holyoke and might very well have gone if they had offered even a scrap of merit aid. For a lot of women it is a great place, and I expect D1 would have been very happy if she had gone there. However, D2 is NOT good at relationships and reading people. I don’t think an all women environment would be a good fit for her (and her sister, who would happily have gone to one, agrees). Anyway… if anyone wants to keep that discussion going, please start another thread so we can focus on the biology department questions here :)</p>
<p>Well that’s fine, they’re not for everyone and you certainly know your daughter best. But I know you said you were data driven so I wanted to just make the case that women’s colleges should be considered on the merits of their data like any other college, and not be dismissed.</p>
<p>interesteddad: How could Swarthmore NOT do a per-capita calculation, given that it’s sitting there in third place behind two colleges that are twice as big as it is?</p>
<p>wis75: The per-capita figures are for all students, not biology majors. You are absolutely right that if 1% of students at a large university ultimately get PhDs in a field, that may represent a more vibrant community than a LAC where 2% of students get PhDs in that field, but 2% at the LAC means 5 per class, and 1% at the state university means 50. On the other hand, though, not all of those 50 will even know each other, but you can bet that the 5 will.</p>
<p>wis75 brings up an interesting point about the interdisciplinary nature of the sciences, so something to consider might be whether a school houses its sciences in one building or separately. Just speaking about the school I know, Grinnell, the sciences used to be in separate buildings, but they built a single science center to promote this interaction (as well as update the facilities, obviously).</p>
<p>“… so we can focus on the biology department questions here”</p>
<p>In a practical sense, perhaps identifying the schools with weak or no bio programs would be useful, since most LACs are said to have good ones, and we’ve covered the strongest.</p>
<p>Mmm, I do not think that this discussion has shown data that “most LACs have good ones”. They have shown that “most LACs have them” and that some have evidence of being good. </p>
<p>I suppose if anyone has some specific knowledge of schools with poor bio programs, please post. That is probably going to be a personal experience story, not data, but could still be useful. The no bio program probably isn’t needed, as D will obviously not visit or apply to somewhere with no bio program at all.</p>
<p>Honestly I think that every school that has been tossed out in this thread has a bio department that is capable of launching a student into a biology related career. FWIW, I know a recent biology graduate from Whitman that is now working in Chapel Hill on a big research project and has happily put off graduation school for several years. She got that job via networking with her Whitman professors. </p>
<p>The variation among the schools’ biology programs is probably far less important than the overall fit of school to kid. She can’t study biology all the time she’s at school. It would be far easier to narrow down schools based on good biology in combination with other factors.</p>
<p>I forgot the links where they do calculate the per capita. These are the most recent updates, for five year periods ending with PhDs awarded in 2006. They give overal PhDs and PhDs in Science & Engineering:</p>
<p>EK4 has been doing a very nice job of presenting the same facts I know about Reed, and the reasons I would recommend their biology department. </p>
<p>My daughter was in the class of '07 at Reed (although not in biology), and looking down the thesis title list, I remember discussing those theses with her friends. They were enthusiastic about their reason, doing original work in the their fields, and in at least one case, the student was invited to an international conference to present her work.</p>
<p>Reed’s absolute requirement for a thesis that includes original work means that their students–those who graduate, at least (see next paragraph)–are well-prepared for advanced work in whatever field they choose. </p>
<p>Those who graduate: Reed has a relatively low graduation rate when compared to many other LACs. When you look at their 2008-2009 Common Data Set [Reed</a> College 2008-09 Common Data Set SecB](<a href=“http://web.reed.edu/ir/cds/cds0809/cdssecb200809.html]Reed”>Reed College 2008-09 Common Data Set SecB - Institutional Research - Reed College) you see that only 77% of the entering class of the fall of 2002 graduated. That is relatively low when compared to other LACs where doing a thesis is not an absolute requirement for all undergraduates. (Many LACs have some departments with a thesis and others without.) That thesis requirement is difficult, and some of my daughter’s friends transferred before graduation, partly because of the thesis requirement (and junior qualifying exams). (Money was also a factor; it’s an expensive college.)</p>
<p>Sure. Except that your hypotheticals are wildly off-base for the specific LACs we’re talking about. Again, take my D’s LAC, Haverford, as an example. Haverford is exceptionally small even for a LAC, with about 1200 undergrads (actually 1190, per Haverford’s 2009-2010 Common Data Set). According to the Common Data Set, Haverford awarded 307 Bachelor’s degrees in 2010, of which 13% were in Biology. If you do the math, that’s 40 Bachelor’s degrees in Biology—certainly enough to provide the desired “critical mass,” all in an intensely rigorous, research-intensive, and close-knit environment in which all the Bio majors know each other and their professors extremely well.</p>
<p>Re: Reed. I notice that the graduation rate at the U.S. Military Academy is 80%, or about the same as Reed’s. Somehow, that certainly never made me respect West Point less, and it reinforces the notion that a West Point degree represents a real achievement, not just a souvenir. I should probably have a similar attitude towards Reed.</p>
David Baltimore
President of Caltech, 1997-2006
Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine, 1975
B.A. in Biology, Swarthmore, 1960</p>
<hr>
<p>Intparent, it took me awhile to locate an article I’d read some years ago comparing the science education and outcomes for UG science majors at both LACs and research unis. I know that’s not the focus of your thread here, but I found this article helpful at the time in formulating some questions of my own when trying to examine and compare the educational opportunities offered at different schools. Perhaps you’ll find some value in it as your daughter refines her list. You can pull up a pdf from a Google search.</p>
<p>“Science at Liberal Arts Colleges: A Better Education?” by Thomas R. Cech.</p>
<p>Rankings are way overrated particularly in regard to Bio / Med Research / Pre-med…
Good student / college fit in regard to all goals while in college, not just academics will be much more successful approach and produce superior results. UG Research (Med. Research, other science reserch) is available at any school. Working with TA vs faculty in Research is very beneficial since undergraduates are closer to TA both age-wise and academically, they understand them better and form close relationships.</p>
<p>My D. is graduating with Zoology major (close to Biology), took advantages of all kind of opportunities available to her at her state school, loved her very challenging classes, loved her Med. Research internship, had straight A’s so far, great MCAT score . She has never paid any attention to rankings, including ideciding which Med. School she will attend (she has been accepted to few Med. Schools in wide range of ranking). We have researched each UG school, she visited them, talked to current students, stayed overnight, investigated all opportunites in her very wide spectrum of interests. </p>
<p>Results have exceeded all expectations so far. She is planning to use the same approach to decide on Medical school, visit them second time, talk to current students, “get a feel”. What good for one is not always best for another. Her pre-med friends have different opinions about the same Medical Schools and each of them is trying to decide which one will be the best for each of them, forget rankings.</p>
The REU list is quite interesting in itself (and might give D some summer options ideas). Some of this info has solidified schools already on her prelminary list (Swarthmore, Haverford, Carleton). A couple of others that might be safeties (Beloit & Lawrence) show up on several of these lists, too, so we will add those. And continue digging into this info and research. Thank you!</p>